Tulwar hilt question.

estcrh · 29th September 2015, 08:25 AM

I was asked if this tulwar hilt is authentic, I thought I would post it here to see if there were any opinions as I am not as well versed on tulwar hilts as some other forum members are.

Ian · 29th September 2015, 08:53 AM

estcrh:

What are you asking to be authenticated? Age, materials, place of manufacture? Can you be more specific please?

You have a PM.

Ian

estcrh · 29th September 2015, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

estcrh:

What are you asking to be authenticated? Age, materials, place of manufacture? Can you be more specific please?

Ian

Ian, just whether this is a good reproduction or an antique.

Ian · 29th September 2015, 09:09 AM

I have checked with estcrh whether this item is currently for sale. Forum Policy does not permit discussion of items currently for sale because such discussion might damage the sale and we don't want angry sellers trying to sue the owner of this forum.

Estcrh is posting this tulwar hilt for a friend and believes it is not currently for sale--so no problem.

estcrh · 29th September 2015, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I have checked with estcrh whether this item is currently for sale. Forum Policy does not permit discussion of items currently for sale because such discussion might damage the sale and we don't want angry sellers trying to sue the owner of this forum.

Estcrh is posting this tulwar hilt for a friend and believes it is not currently for sale--so no problem.

The owner is Japanese and does not speak very good English, he acquired this and has no knowledge of them, he asked me if it was modern made or antique, that was all he asked about it.

Ian · 29th September 2015, 09:17 AM

I vote for recent manufacture. There are some good reproductions coming out of Rajasthan these days and they are obviously working from antique models. It can be hard to tell new from old in online pictures, but the pattern of the steel does not look like wootz to me--more like pattern welded--which makes me think it is a recent reproduction. The gold work is well preserved (usually something is missing here and there), and not of the highest quality.

That's the best I can do from pictures. Really need to have these in hand to get a good idea of age.

Ian.

Roland_M · 29th September 2015, 09:42 AM

Hello estcrh,

I'm pretty sure, that we see a tulwar hilt from early to mid 19th ct. and made from wootz.
The last picture shows clearly wootz for my eyes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

The state of corrosion is further sign for wootz.

But I also know, that they are able to make wootz since a few years in India, so it is quite complicated to make safe statements. Ugly wootz and easy to identify but they constantly improving their skills.

Roland

Kubur · 29th September 2015, 10:35 AM

I'm not an expert, but I think this one is authentic, 18-19th c.
I'm the proud owner of two ugly wootz Indian style and at least I know what is bad...

ALEX · 29th September 2015, 12:10 PM

This is definitely genuine antique wootz hilt, 18-19 Century.

Jim McDougall · 29th September 2015, 06:30 PM

We could really use Jens here, as there are few people who know tulwars as he does...but I would say this is indeed an authentic tulwar hilt of 19th century probably earlier and could be latter 18th. It does seem to be of wootz, and the koftgari is something I personally would not consider of the modern Rajasthan wares.

Bob A · 29th September 2015, 06:57 PM

It strikes me as unusual that there is no wear at all on the gold work.

The pattern I see is more Damascene than wootz, which has more granular inclusions, or so it appears to my unskilled eye.

The scratches that appear in the close-up in the last picture are beneath the gold work, and appear fresh and without any sort of corrosion, which seems a bit odd.

I hesitate to draw any conclusions from these observations.

Miguel · 29th September 2015, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

This is definitely genuine antique wootz hilt, 18-19 Century.

I agree with Alex definitely looks genuine to me.
Miguel

estcrh · 30th September 2015, 04:40 AM

Thanks everyone for your opinions, if anything this shows how difficult it can be to adequately judge the authenticity of some items due to the high level of reproduction craftsmanship that has been seen lately in some parts of the world.

ALEX · 30th September 2015, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Thanks everyone for your opinions, if anything this shows how difficult it can be to adequately judge the authenticity of some items due to the high level of reproduction craftsmanship that has been seen lately in some parts of the world.

actually, this one is not difficult at all. It has nothing to do with the level of reproductions... it's all about level of knowledge and experience, always!

ariel · 1st October 2015, 05:55 AM

There is no doubt in my mind that this is a real thing: 18 century, first half of the 19th at the latest.
Thank Heavens, our Rajastani brothers still do not know how to make anything even remotely comparable to that!

29th September 2015, 08:25 AM	#1
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Tulwar hilt question. I was asked if this tulwar hilt is authentic, I thought I would post it here to see if there were any opinions as I am not as well versed on tulwar hilts as some other forum members are. Attached Images

29th September 2015, 09:09 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Moderator's comment I have checked with estcrh whether this item is currently for sale. Forum Policy does not permit discussion of items currently for sale because such discussion might damage the sale and we don't want angry sellers trying to sue the owner of this forum. Estcrh is posting this tulwar hilt for a friend and believes it is not currently for sale--so no problem.

1st October 2015, 05:55 AM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Tulwar handle There is no doubt in my mind that this is a real thing: 18 century, first half of the 19th at the latest. Thank Heavens, our Rajastani brothers still do not know how to make anything even remotely comparable to that!

29th September 2015, 08:53 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	estcrh: What are you asking to be authenticated? Age, materials, place of manufacture? Can you be more specific please? You have a PM. Ian

29th September 2015, 09:17 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	I vote for recent manufacture. There are some good reproductions coming out of Rajasthan these days and they are obviously working from antique models. It can be hard to tell new from old in online pictures, but the pattern of the steel does not look like wootz to me--more like pattern welded--which makes me think it is a recent reproduction. The gold work is well preserved (usually something is missing here and there), and not of the highest quality. That's the best I can do from pictures. Really need to have these in hand to get a good idea of age. Ian.

29th September 2015, 09:42 AM	#7
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello estcrh, I'm pretty sure, that we see a tulwar hilt from early to mid 19th ct. and made from wootz. The last picture shows clearly wootz for my eyes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel The state of corrosion is further sign for wootz. But I also know, that they are able to make wootz since a few years in India, so it is quite complicated to make safe statements. Ugly wootz and easy to identify but they constantly improving their skills. Roland

29th September 2015, 10:35 AM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I'm not an expert, but I think this one is authentic, 18-19th c. I'm the proud owner of two ugly wootz Indian style and at least I know what is bad...

29th September 2015, 12:10 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	This is definitely genuine antique wootz hilt, 18-19 Century.

29th September 2015, 06:30 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	We could really use Jens here, as there are few people who know tulwars as he does...but I would say this is indeed an authentic tulwar hilt of 19th century probably earlier and could be latter 18th. It does seem to be of wootz, and the koftgari is something I personally would not consider of the modern Rajasthan wares.

29th September 2015, 06:57 PM	#11
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	It strikes me as unusual that there is no wear at all on the gold work. The pattern I see is more Damascene than wootz, which has more granular inclusions, or so it appears to my unskilled eye. The scratches that appear in the close-up in the last picture are beneath the gold work, and appear fresh and without any sort of corrosion, which seems a bit odd. I hesitate to draw any conclusions from these observations.

30th September 2015, 04:40 AM	#13
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Thanks everyone for your opinions, if anything this shows how difficult it can be to adequately judge the authenticity of some items due to the high level of reproduction craftsmanship that has been seen lately in some parts of the world.