Yataghan: a Magic Word

ariel · 7th May 2007, 07:23 PM

Here is a saber that went for a very pretty penny.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...4856&rd=1&rd=1
I am uncertain about the blade: have a feeling it is not genuine Solingen but rather a local (Arab? Caucasian?) imitation. The markings are rather crude.
The main interest, I guess, was caused by the Yataghan handle. Indeed, Yataghan-handled sabers are quite rare. But... the handle is wooden, very crude, very damaged and the wood looks as if it came yesterday from Home Depot. The rivets are not well seen, but even the partial view looks home-made.
Am I being too critical? Wrong?

Tim Simmons · 7th May 2007, 07:34 PM

Personally I think you are being sensible, as if that is possible collecting junk weapons, and right. The handle is not right. Could have an Abyssinian look? is that a copy of a bishops head or something else?

Lew · 7th May 2007, 07:58 PM

It looks like it was put together in someones garage certainly not worth the end price

Lew

mavi1970 · 7th May 2007, 09:17 PM

like it was said in an earlier thread, people have a lot of disposable income these days for sword collecting. its pushing the cost up artificially for real items due to lesser items jumping up in price. but demand fuels supply. i dread the day when chinese made 'yataghans' start flooding the market.

Jeff D · 7th May 2007, 09:25 PM

Here is a real Peter Munich mark, the e-bay one isn't even close.

Jeff

S.Al-Anizi · 7th May 2007, 10:15 PM

Hello,

I would have to agree with Ariel on this one. The wood seems quite recent, but the blade, although not an original Solingen blade, does not seem either. Probably a Caucasian imitation as you said. Of course, I wouldnt pay half the end price on such a piece, although the blade could be fun to start a project with

Battara · 8th May 2007, 01:27 AM

BLEHHHHHHH!

ALEX · 8th May 2007, 08:55 AM

Considering the form and shape of the blade, this sword can not even be considered as Yataghan to begin with (am I right?). Thus, the Yataghan shaped hilt can not be original, especially made of a plain wood:-)

ariel · 8th May 2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Considering the form and shape of the blade, this sword can not even be considered as Yataghan to begin with (am I right?). Thus, the Yataghan shaped hilt can not be original, especially made of a plain wood:-)

There are sabers with "eared" yataghan handles just as there are yataghan blades with "karabela" handles.
I once saw a kilij ( real Yelman-ed one!) with a tremendously long, two-handed Yataghan handle.
The combination does not surprise me; but the freshness and the crudity of the handle do. And, BTW, I rather liked the blade: I generally like locally-produced fakes of the European blades

Strange taste, I guess..

ALEX · 8th May 2007, 03:19 PM

Thanks Ariel,
I also liked the blade (but not the stamps on it). I categorized this blade based on certain standards. See, if I'll take Ford engine and will add Toyota body and Honda transmission, how do I call it? It'll be just a car, right. So I'd call it just a sword, not Yataghan:-)
Also, can Kilij blade with Yataghan hilt be an original, i.e. old sword, or is it most likely a recent composition?

ariel · 8th May 2007, 04:04 PM

Anything with a blade and a handle is a sword...
New or old?
That needs to be determined in each case, but there are many old examples incorporating different styles. The same Parang Nabur, for example, is a marriage of the native blade and European handle ( albeit, subtly changed). Bedouin swords have shashka-type handle ( borrowed from the Circassians) and a bewildering panoply of blades: European, local a la European, shamshirs , you name it. And the final concoction is locally called just Klych, no matter what components got into the final mix.
And, whether we like it or not, Bedouin Klych is a unique ethnographic weapon, no less genuine that Indian Khanda or Jawanese Kris. And what is Persian Shamshir, this purebred beauty, if not a combination of a Steppe saber with ( likely) Arabian influence on the handle.
People create weapons, and sometimes they manage to create a chimera that puzzles everybody for years to come, such as Kilij with Yataghan handle. Right now, on e-bay there is a Yataghan blade with Kilij handle( no ID, I know...), so why not the vice versa?

Michael Blalock · 9th May 2007, 12:42 AM

This one that just ended has a Yataghan looking hilt and went for a lot of money. It's odd looking to me but I don't know much about european swords.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250109651470

ariel · 9th May 2007, 02:04 AM

I wanted to show this one, too!! You got it first, Michael

Not Yataghan: Karabela, and this is the main reason for its high price.
Any time one uses words "Karabela" or "Polish", sparks start flying high and wide. Apparently, collectors of Polish descent are willing to pay any price for a piece of their national history. That's fine with me.
But...
This one looks to me like a typical 19th century Ottoman military sword with a lot of recent embellishments.
For example, the crudely scratched " European" coat of arms looks to me of a newly-manufactured Syrian nature.
The handle is also suspiciously fresh: unscratched, not a single chip and with a perfect fit to langets. Not a trace of age-induced shrinkage, dry wood etc. In contrast, the wooden inserts of the scabbard show age.
I think the best scenario is as follows: the original Ottoman military sword of a 19th cen. variety acquired embellished throat of the scabbard ( to misdirect it's origins to Europe) and a new handle. The Karabela handle was a stroke of genius! Suddenly, the sword became Polish.
The finished " dog's breakfast" product brought a very pretty penny , instead of just a "fish'n chips". Good investment

7th May 2007, 07:23 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yataghan: a Magic Word Here is a saber that went for a very pretty penny. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...4856&rd=1&rd=1 I am uncertain about the blade: have a feeling it is not genuine Solingen but rather a local (Arab? Caucasian?) imitation. The markings are rather crude. The main interest, I guess, was caused by the Yataghan handle. Indeed, Yataghan-handled sabers are quite rare. But... the handle is wooden, very crude, very damaged and the wood looks as if it came yesterday from Home Depot. The rivets are not well seen, but even the partial view looks home-made. Am I being too critical? Wrong?

7th May 2007, 09:25 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Here is a real Peter Munich mark, the e-bay one isn't even close. Jeff Attached Images

7th May 2007, 07:34 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Personally I think you are being sensible, as if that is possible collecting junk weapons, and right. The handle is not right. Could have an Abyssinian look? is that a copy of a bishops head or something else?

7th May 2007, 07:58 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	It looks like it was put together in someones garage certainly not worth the end price Lew

7th May 2007, 09:17 PM	#4
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	like it was said in an earlier thread, people have a lot of disposable income these days for sword collecting. its pushing the cost up artificially for real items due to lesser items jumping up in price. but demand fuels supply. i dread the day when chinese made 'yataghans' start flooding the market.

7th May 2007, 10:15 PM	#6
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Hello, I would have to agree with Ariel on this one. The wood seems quite recent, but the blade, although not an original Solingen blade, does not seem either. Probably a Caucasian imitation as you said. Of course, I wouldnt pay half the end price on such a piece, although the blade could be fun to start a project with

8th May 2007, 01:27 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	BLEHHHHHHH!

8th May 2007, 08:55 AM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Considering the form and shape of the blade, this sword can not even be considered as Yataghan to begin with (am I right?). Thus, the Yataghan shaped hilt can not be original, especially made of a plain wood:-)

8th May 2007, 03:19 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks Ariel, I also liked the blade (but not the stamps on it). I categorized this blade based on certain standards. See, if I'll take Ford engine and will add Toyota body and Honda transmission, how do I call it? It'll be just a car, right. So I'd call it just a sword, not Yataghan:-) Also, can Kilij blade with Yataghan hilt be an original, i.e. old sword, or is it most likely a recent composition?

8th May 2007, 04:04 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Anything with a blade and a handle is a sword... New or old? That needs to be determined in each case, but there are many old examples incorporating different styles. The same Parang Nabur, for example, is a marriage of the native blade and European handle ( albeit, subtly changed). Bedouin swords have shashka-type handle ( borrowed from the Circassians) and a bewildering panoply of blades: European, local a la European, shamshirs , you name it. And the final concoction is locally called just Klych, no matter what components got into the final mix. And, whether we like it or not, Bedouin Klych is a unique ethnographic weapon, no less genuine that Indian Khanda or Jawanese Kris. And what is Persian Shamshir, this purebred beauty, if not a combination of a Steppe saber with ( likely) Arabian influence on the handle. People create weapons, and sometimes they manage to create a chimera that puzzles everybody for years to come, such as Kilij with Yataghan handle. Right now, on e-bay there is a Yataghan blade with Kilij handle( no ID, I know...), so why not the vice versa?

9th May 2007, 12:42 AM	#12
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	This one that just ended has a Yataghan looking hilt and went for a lot of money. It's odd looking to me but I don't know much about european swords. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250109651470

9th May 2007, 02:04 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I wanted to show this one, too!! You got it first, Michael Not Yataghan: Karabela, and this is the main reason for its high price. Any time one uses words "Karabela" or "Polish", sparks start flying high and wide. Apparently, collectors of Polish descent are willing to pay any price for a piece of their national history. That's fine with me. But... This one looks to me like a typical 19th century Ottoman military sword with a lot of recent embellishments. For example, the crudely scratched " European" coat of arms looks to me of a newly-manufactured Syrian nature. The handle is also suspiciously fresh: unscratched, not a single chip and with a perfect fit to langets. Not a trace of age-induced shrinkage, dry wood etc. In contrast, the wooden inserts of the scabbard show age. I think the best scenario is as follows: the original Ottoman military sword of a 19th cen. variety acquired embellished throat of the scabbard ( to misdirect it's origins to Europe) and a new handle. The Karabela handle was a stroke of genius! Suddenly, the sword became Polish. The finished " dog's breakfast" product brought a very pretty penny , instead of just a "fish'n chips". Good investment