Help identifying a sword

delor · 20th February 2011, 05:45 PM

Hello,
would you be so kind to help identifying this sword ?
The shape of the blade looks oriental to me (maybe ottoman) and the stamp might be arabic, but I can't be sure of it.
On the other hand the handle and the scabbard seem to be more from western Europe, maybe french 1st empire, but I'm definitely not a specialist of these weapons. Any ideas ?

Norman McCormick · 20th February 2011, 06:05 PM

Hi Delor,
I think you're correct, looks like a remounted yataghan blade with the guard emulating a European hunting sword and the shape of the hilt reminiscent of some late 18thC cavalry swords. It would be worthwhile posting the blade stamp on the Ethnographic part of the Forum as you're more likely to get info regarding that part of the sword there. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. The blade might be of Indian origin also, I'm sure a member more knowledgeable with come up with the right answer.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2011, 09:19 PM

I think Norman is on target with the Indian assessment, and this appears to possibly be an Indian sosun pattah blade. As for the mounts, these are outstanding and this seems to suggest possibly French military hanger in the 18th century 'hirshfanger' or hunting sword style. These silver mounts and military panoplies lend well to this thought, and the ebony grips were very much favored by French officers in swords around the opening of the 19th c.
French military had adopted a number of 'exotic' auxiliary units after the Egyptian campaigns as well as already having 'pandour' type units which were modelled on the notorious units of Baron von Trenck in the War of Austrian Succession.

In these exotic units, the French officers adopted exotic dress as well as weapons, and as the pandour units had done the same using Ottoman style fashion and yataghans, so the French followed suit. I have seen similar bladed swords with hirshfanger styled hilts and heavy yataghan blades of this type clearly for cavalry use, and ligature with crowned crest engraved in the blade. The hilt had staghorn, another favored material.

Some of these units were Illyrian units in the Balkans, and I cannot recall further details, however, the exotic weapons and dress rang a bell with this, and I strobgly feel it is French, end of the 18th-early 19th c.

Incredibly beautiful weapon!!! and definitely worthy of further research.
The stamped cartouche is similar to others seen on Indian blades from regions in the northwest and is quite possibly in Urdu.

All best regards,
Jim

delor · 21st February 2011, 06:16 PM

Well, very interesting explanation. This historical context might be the right explanation.

Thanks a lot !

PS : will let you if the blade happens to reveal damascus or wootz steel...

delor · 22nd February 2011, 07:55 AM

The etching of the blade showed a pattern welded damascus steel. I posted a photo in the Ethnographic forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13366

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2011, 01:35 AM

After seeing the example similar posted by Gav on the ethnographic forum I am rethinking my suggestion of sosun pattah blade. As he has noted, these cartouches do appear on Ottoman yataghan blades, which makes entirely more sense.
As mentioned, the French were extremely active in the Napoleonic period in the Balkans, and thier Illryian regiments of course often used yataghan type weapons. Officers of course were inclined toward these courtly hunting type hangers and some, as the one I previously described, of sabre length.
Again, that particular sword was distinctly European made of forged steel and with European markings. These Ottoman blades may well have been procured through makers in Ottoman regions or perhaps diplomatically obtained.

Most interesting sword, and it would be great to learn more on the motif which is seen in the mounts. In France, just as in much of Europe in the latter part of the 18th and into early 19th century, there was a great attraction to occult and oriental esoterica. These elements had not only become in vogue in the private sector, but had entered even military fashion increasingly throughout the 18th century. Much of this is seen with the cabbalist type markings on blades and certainly in motif in private swords of smallsword and court forms.

Again as mentioned, the military panoplies, helmet, neoclassical themes and zoomorphic image as well as the drag on the chape of the scabbard and military carrying trappings would in my opinion signal European use.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2011, 01:42 AM

Readers please note we are playing tag with this same sword which is concurrently posted also on the Ethnographic forum.

20th February 2011, 05:45 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Help identifying a sword Hello, would you be so kind to help identifying this sword ? The shape of the blade looks oriental to me (maybe ottoman) and the stamp might be arabic, but I can't be sure of it. On the other hand the handle and the scabbard seem to be more from western Europe, maybe french 1st empire, but I'm definitely not a specialist of these weapons. Any ideas ? Attached Images

20th February 2011, 06:05 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,584	Hi Delor, I think you're correct, looks like a remounted yataghan blade with the guard emulating a European hunting sword and the shape of the hilt reminiscent of some late 18thC cavalry swords. It would be worthwhile posting the blade stamp on the Ethnographic part of the Forum as you're more likely to get info regarding that part of the sword there. Hope this helps. Regards, Norman. P.S. The blade might be of Indian origin also, I'm sure a member more knowledgeable with come up with the right answer. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 20th February 2011 at 07:02 PM.

23rd February 2011, 01:35 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,836	After seeing the example similar posted by Gav on the ethnographic forum I am rethinking my suggestion of sosun pattah blade. As he has noted, these cartouches do appear on Ottoman yataghan blades, which makes entirely more sense. As mentioned, the French were extremely active in the Napoleonic period in the Balkans, and thier Illryian regiments of course often used yataghan type weapons. Officers of course were inclined toward these courtly hunting type hangers and some, as the one I previously described, of sabre length. Again, that particular sword was distinctly European made of forged steel and with European markings. These Ottoman blades may well have been procured through makers in Ottoman regions or perhaps diplomatically obtained. Most interesting sword, and it would be great to learn more on the motif which is seen in the mounts. In France, just as in much of Europe in the latter part of the 18th and into early 19th century, there was a great attraction to occult and oriental esoterica. These elements had not only become in vogue in the private sector, but had entered even military fashion increasingly throughout the 18th century. Much of this is seen with the cabbalist type markings on blades and certainly in motif in private swords of smallsword and court forms. Again as mentioned, the military panoplies, helmet, neoclassical themes and zoomorphic image as well as the drag on the chape of the scabbard and military carrying trappings would in my opinion signal European use. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd February 2011 at 02:15 AM.

20th February 2011, 09:19 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,836	I think Norman is on target with the Indian assessment, and this appears to possibly be an Indian sosun pattah blade. As for the mounts, these are outstanding and this seems to suggest possibly French military hanger in the 18th century 'hirshfanger' or hunting sword style. These silver mounts and military panoplies lend well to this thought, and the ebony grips were very much favored by French officers in swords around the opening of the 19th c. French military had adopted a number of 'exotic' auxiliary units after the Egyptian campaigns as well as already having 'pandour' type units which were modelled on the notorious units of Baron von Trenck in the War of Austrian Succession. In these exotic units, the French officers adopted exotic dress as well as weapons, and as the pandour units had done the same using Ottoman style fashion and yataghans, so the French followed suit. I have seen similar bladed swords with hirshfanger styled hilts and heavy yataghan blades of this type clearly for cavalry use, and ligature with crowned crest engraved in the blade. The hilt had staghorn, another favored material. Some of these units were Illyrian units in the Balkans, and I cannot recall further details, however, the exotic weapons and dress rang a bell with this, and I strobgly feel it is French, end of the 18th-early 19th c. Incredibly beautiful weapon!!! and definitely worthy of further research. The stamped cartouche is similar to others seen on Indian blades from regions in the northwest and is quite possibly in Urdu. All best regards, Jim

21st February 2011, 06:16 PM	#4
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Well, very interesting explanation. This historical context might be the right explanation. Thanks a lot ! PS : will let you if the blade happens to reveal damascus or wootz steel...

22nd February 2011, 07:55 AM	#5
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The etching of the blade showed a pattern welded damascus steel. I posted a photo in the Ethnographic forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13366

24th February 2011, 01:42 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,836	Readers please note we are playing tag with this same sword which is concurrently posted also on the Ethnographic forum.