Indo persian ? Arabic curved 'working' knife

katana · 12th February 2007, 03:30 PM

This is a strange knife the spine on this curved blade is 'thick' to its tip (no distal taper) . The edge is on the inside of the curved blade. The hilt is not embellished and suggests a 'working use'. If a weapon ....the only use I can see is that it could be used to 'slit' the throat of an unsuspecting victim (or animal) or as a 'mercy killer' in the aftermath of battle. Not 'ornate enough' to be a ritual/ceremonial ....surely.

Any information or comments would be appreciated....I have not seen this style of knife before

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...7089&rd=1&rd=1

Jens Nordlunde · 12th February 2007, 04:00 PM

Hi Katana,

To me it looks as if it is an Indian type of Bank, see Stone page 93 fig. 120. I will see if I can find what the Wallace catalogue says. In the Wallace catalogue i only found one #2205, but there could be others. See also Egerton #480-1 and #581, note.

katana · 13th February 2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Katana,

To me it looks as if it is an Indian type of Bank, see Stone page 93 fig. 120. I will see if I can find what the Wallace catalogue says. In the Wallace catalogue i only found one #2205, but there could be others. See also Egerton #480-1 and #581, note.

Thanks Jens, Stone does not state what a 'Bank' is used for .....any ideas ?
I look forward to any information you can provide (I do not have Egerton as a referance

)

Jens Nordlunde · 13th February 2007, 05:57 PM

Hi Katana,

Lord Egerton of Tatton, Indian and Oriental Armour, reprint 1968.
In the chapter about the Mahrattas he writes.
#480. Dagger; Bank; Sickel-shaped; polished steel blade, of semicircular outline, mounted on a straight hilt of dark wood, studded with floriated silver bosses; crimson velvet sheath, tipped with silver. Indore.

#481. ‘Dagger; Bank; crescent-shaped; curved of burnished steel; hilt of dark wood, continuing the curve of the blade, and together forming an exactly semicircular outline. Kolapoer.

In the chapter about Mahomedan Arms of the Deccan and Mysore he writes.
#581, notes.
Bank, curved dagger. Watered steel blade, figured copper handle and finger guard. Worn by common people among the Mogulyes and the people of the Rajwar cast throughout India. Tower. 431, Additional Collection.

Bank. Good steel blade; iron handle ornamented with brass. Mysore. Time of Tippoo.

Bank. Common steel blade, iron handle. Carnatic [?] Worn chiefly by irregular infantry.

Lets move on to Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India by Dr. Syed Zafar Haider, Lahore. 1991.
On page 209 he describes the weapon like this. ‘The word in Hindi means a curvation or a bend, therefore the ´name of this dagger comes from its curved shape. It was sickle shaped with a straight handle of copper, wood or ivory, riveted to the flat tang. It was worn by Mughals and people from the Rajwar cast. Scabbards were made of wood, covered by Keemkhab and mounted with silver gilt.
The picture is from Dr. Haider’s book.

I am not sure what it was used for, but when Dr. Haider shows it in his book i think we can take it for granded that it was a weapon.

Jens

PS. MAWAR- RAJWAR GULLY:- This pass connects Rajwar and Mawar areas

Emanuel · 13th February 2007, 06:12 PM

Hi David and Jens,

I was also looking at this knife, and I found it very weird. The thing about the bank is that it has a reinforced spine to help in cutting. This strange knife has a mid-rib and is double-edged, suggesting that it was used for stabbing, instead of cutting/slashing. Couldn't it just be a khanjar variant? Of course the handle makes stabbing like a khanjar awckward if not impossible...could it have been a replacement or a repair put the wrong way?

Regards,
Emanuel

katana · 13th February 2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi David and Jens,

This strange knife has a mid-rib and is double-edged, suggesting that it was used for stabbing, instead of cutting/slashing. Couldn't it just be a khanjar variant? Of course the handle makes stabbing like a khanjar awckward if not impossible...could it have been a replacement or a repair put the wrong way?

Regards,
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel,
I believe there is only one cutting edge....the 'inner' ....the outer edge has no chamfer of any kind....it is 'flat'. The only way to use this as a weapon would be to cut using the 'inner' blade. There isn't a point to speak of...that could be used for 'stabbing'. The extra photos I received from the seller suggests that the blade was of good quality.

Hi Jens, thankyou for the additional information.....appreciated

David

Jens Nordlunde · 13th February 2007, 10:46 PM

Hi David,

I had a hunch that it would be like you describe, and that would have been my next question – so you spared me one

.
I still think it is a bank, maybe a locally made one – but still a bank – any other suggestions?

I don't think it was made for stabbing, only for cutting.

Jens

Emanuel · 14th February 2007, 06:00 PM

Oops, I had missed the description of the spine and concave edge.

It still makes it an interesting looking bank.

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2007, 06:29 AM

In an interesting entry in Van Zonneveld ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, Leiden, 2001) a weapon similar to these is shown as a 'lawa ayam' and used in Sumatra and Java (p.82).

It is noted here that these were used in a stabbing upward fashion, and causing atrocious injuries, suggesting that a ripping type movement was implemented with the extremely curved blade.

Not a pleasant thought, but thought this might respond to the possible manner of use.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2007, 10:55 AM

Well done Jim, could you, or anyone else who have the book, show us a picture of the knife?

Does the dagger you refer to have a mid rib, is it pointed, and does it have the same curve as the one Katana shows?

The half pommel on Katana’s dagger seems to be turning the wrong way, unless it was meant for support of the back of the hand when used in an upward cut. What bothers me a bit is the missing point on Katana’s dagger, as it would need to be pointed, should it be used as you describe. Of the two shown in post #4, I think only the one to the right could be used for an upward cut, as the one to the left seems to be too curved.

Robert · 15th February 2007, 02:57 PM

To me because of the way this knife is designed (with a rounded tip) the only way that I could see it being used as a weapon would be to sneak up behind someone slip it around the neck and with one quick pull......Ouch!!

Were any knives designed for this particular purpose?

Robert

katana · 15th February 2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

To me because of the way this knife is designed (with a rounded tip) the only way that I could see it being used as a weapon would be to sneak up behind someone slip it around the neck and with one quick pull......Ouch!!

Robert

I am inclined to agree.......perhaps the rounded tip and the unsharped outer edge allow the left hand to apply further pressure or control once the blade is against the throat of the victim

Or perhaps an animal slaughter knife..........or both

Tim Simmons · 15th February 2007, 06:14 PM

An air/sea rescue knife

now that is just being silly

a knife for sacrifice sounds quite possible. Perhaps the basis of the late Victorian and modern day fantasists occult knife. Burton got a frisson from this sort of thing. I believe his wife burnt a lot of his stuff on his demise.

VANDOO · 15th February 2007, 06:45 PM

THIS DESIGN WOULD WORK WELL FOR CUTTING THRU REIGNS OR HARNESS ON RIDING ANIMALS OR ROPES, ECT. IT COULD FUNCTION FOR CUTTING A THROAT BUT SO CAN MORE COMMON SHAPED BLADES WITH MUCH LESS CURVE AND THEY COULD ALSO SERVE MUCH BETTER IN A FIGHT. THEY WOULD WORK WELL TO HOOK INTO SOMEONE AND THE MORE THEY PULLED AWAY THE DEEPER IT WOULD CUT SO YOU COULD PULL THEM TOWARD ANOTHER WEAPON. I USED TO KNOW A FELLOW WHO CARRIED A KNIFE KIND OF CURVED LIKE A CARPET KNIFE ,HE REFERED TO IT AS HIS "COME HITHER KNIFE" SAYING IF THEY TRYED TO RUN AWAY IT WOULD HOOK IN AND CUT DEEPER UNTIL THE WOULD COME HITHER.

JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOME SPECIAL REASON OR MEANING TO THE GROUP CARRIENG THEM UNKNOWN TO ME AND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THE BLADE WOULD FUNCTION IN USE.

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2007, 10:47 PM

I've looked at this knife a lot of times since its been posted.

The blade geometry makes it far from ideal as a blade designed to cut cleanly and deeply through flesh. The central spine has the effect of strengthening a blade at the expense of reducing its ability to cut cleanly and deeply, and to hold an edge; this is caused by the angle formed by the sides of the blade as they decline to the cutting edge.

Look at the other extreme of blade geometry in an old fashioned straight razor:- the blade is deeply hollow ground giving an exceptionally narrow angle to the blade sides as they decline to the cutting edge.

I've owned several Indian banks over the years, and handled many more. All that I have handled have been smallish, neat knives, and all had blade geometry that provided a decline to the cutting edge from the blade back. In other words, a blade that would take and hold a fine edge.

I have owned and handled a considerable number of lawi ayam of various designs, sizes and origins. They have ranged from a knife only about 2.5 inches long with a single edge, to serious daggers with two cutting edges and a length of about 9 inches. All have had very deeply curved blades.

The knife currently under discussion looks nothing like any bank I have ever seen, and does not resemble in the slightest degree a lawi ayam.

Having said that, I also must say that I do not have the vaguest idea what it might be. However, when we come across something that has not been illustrated somewhere it is quite possible that we may be looking at an individual piece that somebody has had made for a specific purpose. I have seen things such as this in Indonesia, also in Australia, and when I was doing custom knife work I accepted several orders for individual designs that in 100 years time will definitely cause somebody who encounters them to ask exactly what they were for.
The more I look at this knife, and always assuming that we are looking at its original form, the more I feel that we are looking at a tool. Possibly a market place tool where the weapon style handle would give a bit of pizzazz to the person using it. Something to cut candy? Something to cut ice? Something to cut melons?

spiral · 16th February 2007, 12:55 AM

Without handling it impossible to say, but perhaps an agricultral crop knife married to a more "weaponry" based handle?

Just looks wrong to my eye.

In Nepal such blades are also used to cut wool from sheep, {I would have to look up the name from my notes.} but they dont have handles like that.

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2007, 04:43 AM

Even with it in my hand I doubt that that I would have any idea what it is. I've simply never seen anything like it.

Maybe a barber's tool to scrape the stubble off people with bald heads?

A gardener's pruning hook?

It looks to me like it would be close to perfect for harvesting grapes.

Once we start to guess about these things with no real knowledge of what we are looking at we can have hours of endless fun.

A tool to scrape the mud off a lawn roller?

spiral · 16th February 2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Even with it in my hand I doubt that that I would have any idea what it is. I've simply never seen anything like it.

But you might be able to see how it is pit together more clearly? & generaly deduce whether it is a marriage or not perhaps?

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2007, 11:29 AM

Yeah, maybe. Also, maybe not. I just don't like to guess about things without a really solid foundation to build the guesses on. With no knowledge of exactly where this thing came from, when it was made, what its provenance is, and no illustrated example, as well as no cultural nor societal knowledge of the place where it might have come from, I would seriously hesitate to hypothesise about what it might be. That's what I said a little while ago:- when we start to guess about these things we can have hours of endless fun. Lots of fun, but no real, supportable conclusions.

A tool to scrape the rust off 44gallon drums?

Maybe it doesn't come from the middle east at all, maybe it comes from Africa, and they use to castrate rogue elephants.

spiral · 16th February 2007, 11:39 AM

As you say maybe, maybe not.

I find more evidence is generaly worth having , particularily the differance between one poor side veiw photo & handling something.

But sure not evry piece gives up its answears, to our questians..

I agree guessing at its use doesnt help provide any further evidence.

I still guess theres a good chance its an agricutural blade jammed in a weapon handle.

But I could be so very wrong!

Spiral

katana · 16th February 2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I still guess theres a good chance its an agricutural blade jammed in a weapon handle.

But I could be so very wrong!

Spiral

This was my original feeling.....its the handle that seems mis-placed. I agree that it seems likely, the design (handle) would suit a weapon. However the blade suggests a utilitarian use......very confusing. I bid on this knife...because of this 'strange' situation....I did not 'win' it...so unfortunately I will not be able to describe it in any more detail (handling, construction etc)
The rounded point could have been 'ground' if the original sharp point had been broken. But surely you would re-point it... not 'blunt' it .

Seems that this will have to go in the 'Unknown' catergory........

Thankyou for everyone's input

12th February 2007, 03:30 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Indo persian ? Arabic curved 'working' knife This is a strange knife the spine on this curved blade is 'thick' to its tip (no distal taper) . The edge is on the inside of the curved blade. The hilt is not embellished and suggests a 'working use'. If a weapon ....the only use I can see is that it could be used to 'slit' the throat of an unsuspecting victim (or animal) or as a 'mercy killer' in the aftermath of battle. Not 'ornate enough' to be a ritual/ceremonial ....surely. Any information or comments would be appreciated....I have not seen this style of knife before http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...7089&rd=1&rd=1 Attached Images Last edited by katana; 12th February 2007 at 06:06 PM.

13th February 2007, 10:46 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi David, I had a hunch that it would be like you describe, and that would have been my next question – so you spared me one. I still think it is a bank, maybe a locally made one – but still a bank – any other suggestions? I don't think it was made for stabbing, only for cutting. Jens

12th February 2007, 04:00 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Katana, To me it looks as if it is an Indian type of Bank, see Stone page 93 fig. 120. I will see if I can find what the Wallace catalogue says. In the Wallace catalogue i only found one #2205, but there could be others. See also Egerton #480-1 and #581, note. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 12th February 2007 at 04:57 PM.

13th February 2007, 05:57 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Katana, Lord Egerton of Tatton, Indian and Oriental Armour, reprint 1968. In the chapter about the Mahrattas he writes. #480. Dagger; Bank; Sickel-shaped; polished steel blade, of semicircular outline, mounted on a straight hilt of dark wood, studded with floriated silver bosses; crimson velvet sheath, tipped with silver. Indore. #481. ‘Dagger; Bank; crescent-shaped; curved of burnished steel; hilt of dark wood, continuing the curve of the blade, and together forming an exactly semicircular outline. Kolapoer. In the chapter about Mahomedan Arms of the Deccan and Mysore he writes. #581, notes. Bank, curved dagger. Watered steel blade, figured copper handle and finger guard. Worn by common people among the Mogulyes and the people of the Rajwar cast throughout India. Tower. 431, Additional Collection. Bank. Good steel blade; iron handle ornamented with brass. Mysore. Time of Tippoo. Bank. Common steel blade, iron handle. Carnatic [?] Worn chiefly by irregular infantry. Lets move on to Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India by Dr. Syed Zafar Haider, Lahore. 1991. On page 209 he describes the weapon like this. ‘The word in Hindi means a curvation or a bend, therefore the ´name of this dagger comes from its curved shape. It was sickle shaped with a straight handle of copper, wood or ivory, riveted to the flat tang. It was worn by Mughals and people from the Rajwar cast. Scabbards were made of wood, covered by Keemkhab and mounted with silver gilt. The picture is from Dr. Haider’s book. I am not sure what it was used for, but when Dr. Haider shows it in his book i think we can take it for granded that it was a weapon. Jens PS. MAWAR- RAJWAR GULLY:- This pass connects Rajwar and Mawar areas Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 13th February 2007 at 06:17 PM.

13th February 2007, 06:12 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi David and Jens, I was also looking at this knife, and I found it very weird. The thing about the bank is that it has a reinforced spine to help in cutting. This strange knife has a mid-rib and is double-edged, suggesting that it was used for stabbing, instead of cutting/slashing. Couldn't it just be a khanjar variant? Of course the handle makes stabbing like a khanjar awckward if not impossible...could it have been a replacement or a repair put the wrong way? Regards, Emanuel

14th February 2007, 06:00 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Oops, I had missed the description of the spine and concave edge. It still makes it an interesting looking bank. Emanuel

15th February 2007, 06:29 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	In an interesting entry in Van Zonneveld ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, Leiden, 2001) a weapon similar to these is shown as a 'lawa ayam' and used in Sumatra and Java (p.82). It is noted here that these were used in a stabbing upward fashion, and causing atrocious injuries, suggesting that a ripping type movement was implemented with the extremely curved blade. Not a pleasant thought, but thought this might respond to the possible manner of use. Best regards, Jim

15th February 2007, 10:55 AM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well done Jim, could you, or anyone else who have the book, show us a picture of the knife? Does the dagger you refer to have a mid rib, is it pointed, and does it have the same curve as the one Katana shows? The half pommel on Katana’s dagger seems to be turning the wrong way, unless it was meant for support of the back of the hand when used in an upward cut. What bothers me a bit is the missing point on Katana’s dagger, as it would need to be pointed, should it be used as you describe. Of the two shown in post #4, I think only the one to the right could be used for an upward cut, as the one to the left seems to be too curved.

15th February 2007, 02:57 PM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	To me because of the way this knife is designed (with a rounded tip) the only way that I could see it being used as a weapon would be to sneak up behind someone slip it around the neck and with one quick pull......Ouch!! Were any knives designed for this particular purpose? Robert

15th February 2007, 06:14 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	An air/sea rescue knife now that is just being silly a knife for sacrifice sounds quite possible. Perhaps the basis of the late Victorian and modern day fantasists occult knife. Burton got a frisson from this sort of thing. I believe his wife burnt a lot of his stuff on his demise.

15th February 2007, 06:45 PM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS DESIGN WOULD WORK WELL FOR CUTTING THRU REIGNS OR HARNESS ON RIDING ANIMALS OR ROPES, ECT. IT COULD FUNCTION FOR CUTTING A THROAT BUT SO CAN MORE COMMON SHAPED BLADES WITH MUCH LESS CURVE AND THEY COULD ALSO SERVE MUCH BETTER IN A FIGHT. THEY WOULD WORK WELL TO HOOK INTO SOMEONE AND THE MORE THEY PULLED AWAY THE DEEPER IT WOULD CUT SO YOU COULD PULL THEM TOWARD ANOTHER WEAPON. I USED TO KNOW A FELLOW WHO CARRIED A KNIFE KIND OF CURVED LIKE A CARPET KNIFE ,HE REFERED TO IT AS HIS "COME HITHER KNIFE" SAYING IF THEY TRYED TO RUN AWAY IT WOULD HOOK IN AND CUT DEEPER UNTIL THE WOULD COME HITHER. JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOME SPECIAL REASON OR MEANING TO THE GROUP CARRIENG THEM UNKNOWN TO ME AND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THE BLADE WOULD FUNCTION IN USE.

15th February 2007, 10:47 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I've looked at this knife a lot of times since its been posted. The blade geometry makes it far from ideal as a blade designed to cut cleanly and deeply through flesh. The central spine has the effect of strengthening a blade at the expense of reducing its ability to cut cleanly and deeply, and to hold an edge; this is caused by the angle formed by the sides of the blade as they decline to the cutting edge. Look at the other extreme of blade geometry in an old fashioned straight razor:- the blade is deeply hollow ground giving an exceptionally narrow angle to the blade sides as they decline to the cutting edge. I've owned several Indian banks over the years, and handled many more. All that I have handled have been smallish, neat knives, and all had blade geometry that provided a decline to the cutting edge from the blade back. In other words, a blade that would take and hold a fine edge. I have owned and handled a considerable number of lawi ayam of various designs, sizes and origins. They have ranged from a knife only about 2.5 inches long with a single edge, to serious daggers with two cutting edges and a length of about 9 inches. All have had very deeply curved blades. The knife currently under discussion looks nothing like any bank I have ever seen, and does not resemble in the slightest degree a lawi ayam. Having said that, I also must say that I do not have the vaguest idea what it might be. However, when we come across something that has not been illustrated somewhere it is quite possible that we may be looking at an individual piece that somebody has had made for a specific purpose. I have seen things such as this in Indonesia, also in Australia, and when I was doing custom knife work I accepted several orders for individual designs that in 100 years time will definitely cause somebody who encounters them to ask exactly what they were for. The more I look at this knife, and always assuming that we are looking at its original form, the more I feel that we are looking at a tool. Possibly a market place tool where the weapon style handle would give a bit of pizzazz to the person using it. Something to cut candy? Something to cut ice? Something to cut melons?

16th February 2007, 12:55 AM	#16
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Without handling it impossible to say, but perhaps an agricultral crop knife married to a more "weaponry" based handle? Just looks wrong to my eye. In Nepal such blades are also used to cut wool from sheep, {I would have to look up the name from my notes.} but they dont have handles like that. Spiral

16th February 2007, 04:43 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Even with it in my hand I doubt that that I would have any idea what it is. I've simply never seen anything like it. Maybe a barber's tool to scrape the stubble off people with bald heads? A gardener's pruning hook? It looks to me like it would be close to perfect for harvesting grapes. Once we start to guess about these things with no real knowledge of what we are looking at we can have hours of endless fun. A tool to scrape the mud off a lawn roller?

16th February 2007, 11:29 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yeah, maybe. Also, maybe not. I just don't like to guess about things without a really solid foundation to build the guesses on. With no knowledge of exactly where this thing came from, when it was made, what its provenance is, and no illustrated example, as well as no cultural nor societal knowledge of the place where it might have come from, I would seriously hesitate to hypothesise about what it might be. That's what I said a little while ago:- when we start to guess about these things we can have hours of endless fun. Lots of fun, but no real, supportable conclusions. A tool to scrape the rust off 44gallon drums? Maybe it doesn't come from the middle east at all, maybe it comes from Africa, and they use to castrate rogue elephants.

16th February 2007, 11:39 AM	#20
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	As you say maybe, maybe not. I find more evidence is generaly worth having , particularily the differance between one poor side veiw photo & handling something. But sure not evry piece gives up its answears, to our questians.. I agree guessing at its use doesnt help provide any further evidence. I still guess theres a good chance its an agricutural blade jammed in a weapon handle. But I could be so very wrong! Spiral