A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer

Antonio Cejunior · 8th September 2007, 04:40 PM

Hi Folks,

Please do check what does this picture is hiding from your eyes.

All you have to do is click on the image to see an entire review.

I'm available to discuss hybridation as a contemporary answer to repetitive shapes. I hope you enjoy this project

Cheers

Lew · 8th September 2007, 05:42 PM

Antonio

Very nice. Unfortunately I do not understand why you would combine the two styles? The baca baca on Moro kris have a definate function by keeping the blade anchored to the hilt during combat the tanto use pegs for that same reason. The knife itself is still aesthetically pleasing but the style is total fantasy. Sorry but I like traditional styles better when it comes to enthograhic weapons I am a purest at heart.

Lew

Bill M · 8th September 2007, 05:56 PM

AC, You sure cross a lot of boundaries!

I see that "Paolo is from the Philippines and he is working in Manila." I would be quite interested in responses from his countrymen.

As a collector of Japanese and Philippine weaponry, I also like the more traditional approaches to these pieces and must agree with Lew.

Antonio Cejunior · 9th September 2007, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Antonio

Very nice. Unfortunately I do not understand why you would combine the two styles? The baca baca on Moro kris have a definate function by keeping the blade anchored to the hilt during combat the tanto use pegs for that same reason. The knife itself is still aesthetically pleasing but the style is total fantasy. Sorry but I like traditional styles better when it comes to enthograhic weapons I am a purest at heart.

Lew

Hi Lew,

Nuff said

Antonio Cejunior · 9th September 2007, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

AC, You sure cross a lot of boundaries!

I see that "Paolo is from the Philippines and he is working in Manila." I would be quite interested in responses from his countrymen.

As a collector of Japanese and Philippine weaponry, I also like the more traditional approaches to these pieces and must agree with Lew.

Yeah Bill,

Nuff said

Bill M · 9th September 2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Yeah Bill,

I love to be politically incorrect. I understand that you choose to be close to traditional approaches. It makes one feel safer, huh

Other folks see things differently though, and even if they didn't I would not change my path.

Antonio,

It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with aesthetics. You like the way your piece looks and so do some of your friends. I have no problem with that.

Your sense of aesthetics is different from mine. Has nothing to do with politically correct or incorrect.

You asked for opinions. Lew and I gave you ours --- Politely.

If you want to carry this matter further in private email, I will be happy to respond, but I am not carrying this any further in a public forum.

Best regards,
Bill

Lew · 9th September 2007, 04:08 AM

Antonio

I collected and designed custom knives for 20 years before I became interested in antique ethnographic weapons and to me your knife though beautifully made and pleasing to the eye is in my opinion a custom knife. I have many books with that show similar experiments in melding knife designs from two different cultures and these are considered fantasy pieces because historically they would never have been made in that way. I thought forum's purpose was to explore other cultures through their weapons which are unique to each individual groups ethnic and historical indentity. Your piece starts to blurr the lines in my opinion thats all.

Lew

Antonio Cejunior · 9th September 2007, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Antonio,

It has nothing to do with safety. It has to do with aesthetics. You like the way your piece looks and so do some of your friends. I have no problem with that.

Your sense of aesthetics is different from mine. Has nothing to do with politically correct or incorrect.

You asked for opinions. Lew and I gave you ours --- Politely.

If you want to carry this matter further in private email, I will be happy to respond, but I am not carrying this any further in a public forum.

Best regards,
Bill

Bill,

I have removed my early posts because I see you took it as offensive and my intention was not. I think we have a difference of cultures, and while I can speak English it doesn't make me a knowledgeable person in terms of specific culture. For me a dialogue can and should even harbour different views.
If I offended you, my public apologies.

Best,
Antonio

Antonio Cejunior · 9th September 2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Antonio

I collected and designed custom knives for 20 years before I became interested in antique ethnograhic weapons and to me your knife though beautifully made and pleasing to the eye is in my opinion a custom knife. I have many books with that show similar experiments in melding knife designs from two different cultures and these are considered fantasy pieces because historically they would never have been made in that way. I thought forum's purpose was to explore other cultures through their weapons which are unique to each individual groups enthnic and historical indentity. Your piece starts to blurr the lines in my opinion thats all.

Lew

Thank you for your opinion Lew.
It is obviously a custom knife

I never use books to design anything so I am not conditioned by any other influence.
I am now enlightened that I should have not posted in this forum.
May I ask our kind moderators to please delete my post?
I'm supposed to have blurred the lines of ethnic groups and their historical identity. My bad I suppose

David · 9th September 2007, 04:24 PM

You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one.

I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation.
I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

Rick · 9th September 2007, 05:12 PM

I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic .

I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2007, 05:37 PM

Antonio and his chum are working to very high standards. There are obvious problems of mixing styles without a living reason to do so. This is a good example showing how quality workmanship and design can be far removed from art. I think to see hybridisation as art look no further than the Mauser inspired sword, it speaks to you very sympathetically.

ariel · 9th September 2007, 06:12 PM

Guys, can we discuss things without rancor?
Some may like the dagger, some may not, some may think it is too "fantasy" to qualify as ethnographic, all this is fine.
I just think there is no sense getting personal.
I'd rather see similar re-interpretations ( that exercise imagination) than pseudo-faithful renditions of authentic weapons that pretend to be real but are not. This one is an "in-your-face" dagger and is fun to look at.
For me, a modern-made sword replicating the old pattern always carries a whiff of a commercial fake. This one does not pretend to look antique and authentic: it is art. Judge it by its own standards.

Lew · 9th September 2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic .

I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

Rick

This is a quote from our welcome page.

"Modern custom knives would qualify as an artifact of our own "culture", but will not be considered here, as they are better represented elsewhere."

So even though the theme of the dagger is ethnograhic and was made in the Philippines by a native Philippino it is still a modern non traditional custom piece.

Lew

tunggulametung · 9th September 2007, 06:45 PM

I would rather encourage Antonio and his team to master the making of traditional Moro weapon instead (if possible in traditional method). So the art of Moro weapon is not vanishing and a new quality pieces are available.

I believe there are still some demand in the local area too (Southern Philippines). I would also recommend to made the pieces by order only just the way it done in older time.

Just my opinion.

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2007, 06:51 PM

I would like to note that although it is obvious that the piece created by Antonio and Paolo is entirely an artistic creation, I found it fascinating to see how it was done as well as the harmony between designer and artisan. While this may not be well placed in a forum dedicated to preserving the history and development of ethnographic edged weapons forms, it presents very interesting perspective on how hybrid weapons often evolved historically. As Tim well pointed out, the 'Mauser sword' item being an excellent case in point.

I share the same passion for preserving not only the history of the weapons we study, but the weapons themselves ,and always dread those who carry out overcleanings, excessive 'restorations' and of course fakes and fraudulent composites. This creation was none of these.

In my opinion, the creation that Antonio presented was a beautiful piece of art, not intended as a reproduction nor as a representative example, and I very much appreciated seeing it. I realize how passionately those here that are involved in these weapons perceive them, and am constantly amazed at the knowledge on them that is shared here, but cannot see how this creation could be construed as anything but art.

Best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2007, 07:40 PM

Its art Jim but not as we know it.

at last.

There is a big industry, those art print shops in every big town that sell art for people who do not like art.

rand · 9th September 2007, 08:18 PM

Don't quite understand the concept that traditional weapons didn't cross boundries while this modern dagger does.

Influences from neighboring countries or regions that trade is done with have had an influence on culture,weapons and armor throughout history and we would have to start with the rock and stick if we wanted to give a study for reference of this.

Aesthetically the blade had a refined tribal form coupled with a ritual function, the hilt looked off balance but that may have been because of the angle the photo was taken from. Also liked the concept of using the Indonesian type of bolsa to snug the dagger into the scabbard. The designs cut into the edge of the blade carry asthetic and cultural symbols that add value to the holder/owner. Personally would have preferred seeing the drilled hole in the blade completely covered with a silver decoration with some sort of an associated design.

Most people would say the style of dagger is based on a Japanese tanto. Or is it really? We could discuss where the Japanese got their basic design from, now that would put a hitch in the road, especially if it went back to China. There was a good reason for Japan to stay so isolated, they just did it to well and too long.

Sometimes if you want to know what works when making something you need only to look at objects from history, believe a 15th century German sallet was the basis for the German 20th century helmet.

Can understand the concept of wanting to keep a discussion in a certain time period, just as one may want to have a show of antique weapons only. But then antique has to be over a hundred years old by definition. So where would one draw the line? Because thats what much of the response is doing, drawing a line in the dirt as was done outside the Alamo by Colonel Ben Milam.

Its a tough question....

For me my answer used to be the Franco Prussian War of 1870-71, because this was the first time that modern rifled firearms decimated men wearing armor(French heavy cavalry), but that left out all the great Russian metalwork on shashkas, daggers and firearms, left out the tribal weapons of the 20th century archipelgo, left out the decline of the sabre in modern armies, left out the progression of the bayonette, left out the change of materials for armor.

Where would you draw the line?

rand

Antonio Cejunior · 10th September 2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one.

I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation.
I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

David,

This will be my last post on this thread and I will explain why.
I'm too old to seek applause. Some folks here do know me quite well and know I'm not interested in applause.

Secondly, I am not just interested in knives or swords specifically but in culture in general, and I have always understood what conservative stances meant. It opposes change, evolution, change.
The irony here is that most of the weapons under discussion, specially Kris and Keris, are themselves a product of cultural migrations or hybridization, and if you or anyone fail to accept that they must not evolve, you are failing, like the Classic Music lovers, who dismiss Jazz as a horrible collection of non-harmonical sounds. Fortunately there were people like Pavarotti that opened the stages they stepped in to Rock performers.

Being conservative or purist over something that is a product of cultural exchanges at ethnic level, is the same as refusing the richness of multi-ethnical Americans, which is an irony. Is as if one refused the way An Afro-American renders his way of being American, or a Latin-American, or an Italo-American, or a Sino-American. It's purely both ironical to deny the richness of diversity originated by immigrants from other continents!!!

Not being a native English speaker, I once was striken by a BBC programme called The History of English. It showed how English was rendered in different places of the world, from the UK to Australia and to places like Jamaica. In other words, it explained the richness of evolution acculturations.

I do love Jazz and I do like to hear a New Yorker say a man gotta do what he's gotta do and I love Brazilian Portuguese, or hear an Indian speak English, or the way an Angolan speaks Portuguese.

I don't want any legitimization for this thread here. I don't need excuses because I myself am a product of multi-ethnicity, from Portuguese to Jew, to Indian, Italian and Irish, and I live in the oldest 450 years outpost in the Far-East, and as a result of such multicultural place, I speak Portuguese, Cantonese, Mandarin, Spanish, Italian, French, a bit of Japanese, a bit of German, and I am open to more.

I seek to learn, and actually the self called purists here have reconfirmed what I already knew.

Lastly I would like to say I like a good discussion. And that does not mean agreeing. But what I see here is the denial of the essence of the roots of ethnical swords. What some here are actually saying to me is, stick to what exists and we do need a reason for those squeeky sounds you're making with this approach. What some of you are saying is, do not acknowledge the richness of ethnographical weapons by getting inspired by them and evolving.
Just stick on discussing what exists.

Sorry guys, I will not take your advise, I have abundantly proved by putting my money where my mouth is, that I am opened to all areas but I will continue my journey without looking back.

Thank you for your time.

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2007, 12:18 AM

Well said Rand! It seems that a very wise man once told me that weapons do not have geographic boundaries! That would seem to imply geopolitical and cultural boundaries were included.
I have always believed that even weapons quite basic in form often subtlely carry art in the sense of certain features or symbolism. These of course may have been derived from other cultures or influences and in many cases have no known purpose other than long forgotten symbolism or vestigial presence.
One example would be the placement of notches in the back of the blade of Meditteranean knives which ended up being a feature in the famed Bowie knife. As far as is known, the reason for this feature has no pratical purpose and any symbolism is long forgotten, yet the early Bowies often carried the feature.

Best regards,
Jim

VANDOO · 10th September 2007, 03:01 AM

ANTONIO IS MOTIVATED BY A SEARCH FOR NEW IDEAS NOT THE AMASSING OF A COLLECTION OF OLD FORMS AS WE ARE. I FIND HIS IDEAS AND DRIVE INTERESTING AND HAVE NO PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING THEM OR SEEING THEM ON THIS FORUM. AS MONTY PHYTHONS FLYING CIRCUS SAID "AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT"!

TO BORROW FROM OTHER FORMS IS THE ONLY CHOICE AS FINDING SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE ANYWHERE THAT IS STILL FUNCTIONAL WOULD ALMOST BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. PERSONALLY I FIND A PURE JAPANESE FORM MORE ASTHETICALLY PLEASING ,BUT DO FIND IT INTERESTING TO SEE THE KNIFE AND THE IDEAS BEHIND ITS CREATION. THANKS ANTONIO

FOR FUN I WILL NOW CREATE TWO NEW FORMS OF PHILIPPINO MONSTER HEAD BOLO'S

THE FIRST WILL BE FOR REPUBLICANS IT WILL HAVE A BLADE AND SCABBARD SHAPED LIKE A DOLLAR SIGN AND THE MONSTER HEAD WILL BE HILLARY

THE SECOND WILL BE FOR DEMOCRATS ITS BLADE AND SCABBARD WILL BE SHAPPED LIKE A PEACE SIGN AND SAY END THE WAR NOW THE MONSTER HEAD OF COURSE WILL BE GEORGE BUSH.

I HOPE THIS WILL BE TAKEN AS INTENDED AND NOT OFFEND, ITS DIFFICULT TO MAKE POLITICAL JOKES UNLESS YOU ARE JAY LENNO.

I PERSONALLY CONSIDER SWORDS OR FANCY DAGGERS MADE TODAY THAT ARE NOT MADE FOR ACTUAL USE AS ART. THOSE MADE FOR USE ARE MOSTLY TOOLS AND ONLY BECOME WEAPONS NOW IF USED BY THE MILITARY, GANGS OR CRIMINALS. EVEN THOSE USED FOR MARTIAL ART PRACTICE ARE MORE OF A TOOL AS WE DON'T PLAN TO ACTUALLY GO OUT FOR A SWORD FIGHT IN OUR SOCIETY THESE DAYS.

ANTONIO FEEL FREE TO USE THESE DESIGN IF YOU WISH

THEY COME FROM MY DEMENTED SCHOOL OF DESIGN

Montino Bourbon · 10th September 2007, 03:29 AM

Can become either a sign post or a hitching post.

I applaud the making of new forms; I compose music in the new "Indian Maqam" form, a form that arises from both classical and folk traditions, but that has the dynamism of rock 'n roll.

I also treasure the classics of the past, the music that came from millennia ago, and do my part to preserve classics in as much of their pristine original form as I can.

In the words of a song sung by my daughter in third grade:

"Make new friends,
But keep the old;
One is silver,
The other is gold."

Or, as Chairman Mao said:

"Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a thousand schools of thought contend"

David · 10th September 2007, 03:32 AM

Well Antonio, i am sorry to see that you are choosing to leave what could be a very good discussion. I do think that you have misinterpreted a few of my statement however, so i will respond even if you choose not to.

Firstly i never meant to imply that you were seeking applause. Though i do find it interesting that your first two responses to comments here was just to say "nuff said" as if you weren't interested in hearing any more commentary in this direction.
Secondly, i clearly stated that i am not opposed to hybrids as a rule, it is just that i would like to see them as a logical evolution, not just the whim of the maker to create something new for art's sake only. I think your agrument on the richness of mixed cultures misses the point. When cultures mix, either by immigration or forced diaspora, the resulting cultural fusion and the artifacts which are created by it are part of an organic evolution created by time, place and necessity. Enslaved Africans mix with Spanish culture in Cuba and Rhumba, Son and eventually Latin Jazz are created as expression of a newly formed cultural hybrid. This is not what has happened in the creation of your tanto/kris. For me it is a forced hybrid with no cultural imperative. This doesn't mean it isn't "art", but as a member of the comedy troupe Monty Python once remarked, "I may not know art, but i know what i like".
BTW, I do enjoy much Classical, Jazz and Rock and Roll music and also many of the fusions the exist in between.

Lastly, i also enjoy a good discussion. I am also well aware that many of our favorite weapons are the products of cultural fusions and evolution. These evolutions are generally logical and organic in nature. They don't develop because some local smith wakes up one morning and says hey, what would happen if i combined a scimitar with a kukhri.
As for the evolution of the kris and the keris, my feelings are mixed. It is still possible that the Indonesian keris could be determined to be a still living and therefore evolving blade form. Certainly they do not hold the place in the culture that they once did, but they still serve as family pusaka for many, they are held in esteem in royal regalia, they still serve ceremonial function as in weddings, etc. If you pay attention to the new blades that are being made in Madura and Jawa you will sometimes see new features which could be seen as an evolution in the form. The Moro kris seems more a blade of the past to me. This doesn't mean that it is not still held in some high esteem culturally, but it doesn't seem to still be in high end production like it's Indonesian cousin is. It doesn't seem that there is any need for it to evolve as a blade form.
The bottom line is that you are welcome to find all the inspiration you can in ethnographic weapons and create all the hybrids that seem fit. In fact i encourage you in this. But you must keep in mind that i do not collect ethnographic weapons specifically for a love of metallurgy. It is the culture and history, the myth and the magick of the keris and kris that drive me to collect these wonderful weapons. I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form. Most custom knives do very little for me. I think that this might also be the case for many others involved in ethnographic weapons. So i think that it might be better if you could accept this as a different approach to edged weapons than your own. It doesn't mean i am ignorant of the roots ethnographic sword, nor of Jazz or cultural diversity. I am not trying to discourage you from your journey Antonio. I just have very little interest in it.

Antonio Cejunior · 10th September 2007, 06:42 AM

David,

Just an exceptional post to clarify a couple of things. I chose you to reply to, but my answer was not directed at you personally.

This being said, and having gone out and come back, I had the time to think about other associations in art, since what differs is my way of expression along with my interaction with Paolo Abrera.
I disagree about the forced hybridization that you mention for various number of reasons which I'll fundament.
1. I had the biggest opportunity to see a large number of swords of all kinds at the HOS exhibition and do allow me the right to be able to assimilate. I did not do it without seeing the real thing. Actually the original design was enriched by Paolo's input. I do know what is the reason for the baca-baca.

2. Cultural hybridization nowadays take much less time with the information society, otherwise any American smith who is doing a Japanese style sword would be subject to your invalidation. Cultural appropriations are, therefore, today of a different level and time.
3. No one objected to the incorporation of distant Japanese culture in paintings by the Impressionists nor organic shapes of Art Nouveau are exempt of Orientalist or even pseudo orientalistic influences. There was no direct contact.
4. Pablo Picasso was never in Africa, but it wasn't less legitimate of him to "take possession" of African masks shapes in his Demoiselles D'Avignon that led to Cubism.

Actually you are obviously entitled to like it or not. I did in fact anticipate what I just wrote above when I said that in the webpage that Then, slowly, hybridation as a cultural process of appropriation, viewed exogenously so as not to be bound by traditions, as too often, too much knowledge becomes to restrictive of creative freedom.

This was already written before the knife was finished.

I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris.

I do remain open to both ancient and new experimentations. That is why I decided not to discuss. Because there is no discussion possible

Cheers

David · 10th September 2007, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris.

Actually i don't believe this is so. I like what i like when i see it. If a blade strikes me, be it old, new or some hybrid it will be something i give fair consideration to. If it happens to be a hybrid style custom knife i am not going to say to myself, oh no, i can't possibly like that, it's a custom hybrid. Antonio, you really make a whole lot of assumptions about me without having any idea who or what i am.

Again, i am not questioning the validity of cultural hybridization and i don't think anyone else here has either, so i am not sure why you feel it is necessary to justify it with your examples of impressionist painters and Picasso's "stolen" african cubism. All i have questioned is the validity of your particular project. Period. For me it doesn't work in this case. You have all the creative freedom you like to create whatever hybrid art you like...and i have the freedom not to like your result....and if you choose you post it here and ask people what they think that is what you are likely to get, opinions.

Jim McDougall · 10th September 2007, 07:54 AM

Just thought I would say this session of art appreciation 101 has been most interesting!

and I am glad that Antonio rejoined us here.
I would like to note that I honestly have always been focused on the study of antique arms and armor with focus on ethnographic edged weapons and have never really thought much about modern custom made edged weapons.
Actually, I never really liked the idea of reproduction or custom pieces since they had no historical value so could not be studied or researched

While I can claim no particular expertise in the study of art, I have very much enjoyed studying its historical applications and of course its considerations in the material culture associated with ethnographic studies. I do not believe that one must be an expert in art to genuinely appreciate it, and has has been seen here, certainly not to have adamate opinions on particular forms of it.

When I first saw the weapon Antonio posted here, I was more than impressed by it, and realized that I could admire and enjoy viewing this weapon as art, at least in my own perception. My perspective on the study of antique edged weapons remains completely uncompromised, and I have gained new perspective on these custom weapons.
Thank you very much Antonio for posting this beautiful example of well designed craftsmanship.

Since we are all sharing our opinions, I wanted to express mine.

Very best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 10th September 2007, 09:31 AM

Antonio's work displays confidence, something needed to show it here, which is more than I can say for myself. In doing so the full spectrum of opinion must be expected.

Andrew · 10th September 2007, 02:32 PM

I like it, Antonio.

Generally, I find most purely Japanese style swords a bit boring. The elements you've incorporated make this interesting for me.

I'm always intrigued at the strong reactions (positive or negative) that art can evoke.

Ian · 10th September 2007, 02:33 PM

Thanks Tim, my thoughts also. Antonio's work is an inspired piece of art, with ethnographic weapons as its source. As art, it does not need to mean anything in the original culture(s), nor be functional. Just something to appreciate for its form and elegance (not that traditional arms lack form and elegance

).

A challenging piece, Antonio. Thanks for showing it here.

Ian.

Mark · 10th September 2007, 05:08 PM

Speaking as a moderator, I think the discussion has settled with a fair understanding on all sides, and I am happy to see that. Some feathers were ruffled (innovation & change tends to evoke that response), but I am very glad that the initial testiness has cooled off. In response to one unanswered question, whether or not this qualifies as an "ethnographic" weapon for the purposes of this forum, it of course pushes the boundries, as does the design itself. Having authored in part the mission statement of the forum, I can say that the intent to exclude "custom" knives was directed at contemporary blades that are either essentially reproductions (often of excellent quality) of historical forms, and modern designs that are not based on any particular historical model. It is hard to classify a design such as Antonios, but I think it is enough of a cultural expression, both as a reflection of past forms and as a contemporary reaction to these.

Speaking as a "private citizen," I think the design is interesting and dramatic, and the workmanship is superb, but doesn't strike a cord with me personally. That is probably because I don't have a particularly strong interest in either Japanese or Philippine blades. After all, they are not dha.

I do see a functional aspect of the baca baca, actually, as it substitutes for the habaki that appears on a traditional tanto.

Hybridizations and interpretations, often dramatic ones, are a real part of the history of weapons. An example I posted on recently is the hybrid daab/katana/keris that is the subject of this thread.

8th September 2007, 04:40 PM	#1
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	A Kris-Tanto or hybridation as an answer Hi Folks, Please do check what does this picture is hiding from your eyes. All you have to do is click on the image to see an entire review. I'm available to discuss hybridation as a contemporary answer to repetitive shapes. I hope you enjoy this project Cheers

9th September 2007, 04:08 AM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Antonio I collected and designed custom knives for 20 years before I became interested in antique ethnographic weapons and to me your knife though beautifully made and pleasing to the eye is in my opinion a custom knife. I have many books with that show similar experiments in melding knife designs from two different cultures and these are considered fantasy pieces because historically they would never have been made in that way. I thought forum's purpose was to explore other cultures through their weapons which are unique to each individual groups ethnic and historical indentity. Your piece starts to blurr the lines in my opinion thats all. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 9th September 2007 at 04:30 AM.

9th September 2007, 06:45 PM	#15
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Moving the Project To Traditional Standard I would rather encourage Antonio and his team to master the making of traditional Moro weapon instead (if possible in traditional method). So the art of Moro weapon is not vanishing and a new quality pieces are available. I believe there are still some demand in the local area too (Southern Philippines). I would also recommend to made the pieces by order only just the way it done in older time. Just my opinion.

9th September 2007, 08:18 PM	#18
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Crossing Boundries? Don't quite understand the concept that traditional weapons didn't cross boundries while this modern dagger does. Influences from neighboring countries or regions that trade is done with have had an influence on culture,weapons and armor throughout history and we would have to start with the rock and stick if we wanted to give a study for reference of this. Aesthetically the blade had a refined tribal form coupled with a ritual function, the hilt looked off balance but that may have been because of the angle the photo was taken from. Also liked the concept of using the Indonesian type of bolsa to snug the dagger into the scabbard. The designs cut into the edge of the blade carry asthetic and cultural symbols that add value to the holder/owner. Personally would have preferred seeing the drilled hole in the blade completely covered with a silver decoration with some sort of an associated design. Most people would say the style of dagger is based on a Japanese tanto. Or is it really? We could discuss where the Japanese got their basic design from, now that would put a hitch in the road, especially if it went back to China. There was a good reason for Japan to stay so isolated, they just did it to well and too long. Sometimes if you want to know what works when making something you need only to look at objects from history, believe a 15th century German sallet was the basis for the German 20th century helmet. Can understand the concept of wanting to keep a discussion in a certain time period, just as one may want to have a show of antique weapons only. But then antique has to be over a hundred years old by definition. So where would one draw the line? Because thats what much of the response is doing, drawing a line in the dirt as was done outside the Alamo by Colonel Ben Milam. Its a tough question.... For me my answer used to be the Franco Prussian War of 1870-71, because this was the first time that modern rifled firearms decimated men wearing armor(French heavy cavalry), but that left out all the great Russian metalwork on shashkas, daggers and firearms, left out the tribal weapons of the 20th century archipelgo, left out the decline of the sabre in modern armies, left out the progression of the bayonette, left out the change of materials for armor. Where would you draw the line? rand

10th September 2007, 03:29 AM	#22
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	The "Classic" approach... Can become either a sign post or a hitching post. I applaud the making of new forms; I compose music in the new "Indian Maqam" form, a form that arises from both classical and folk traditions, but that has the dynamism of rock 'n roll. I also treasure the classics of the past, the music that came from millennia ago, and do my part to preserve classics in as much of their pristine original form as I can. In the words of a song sung by my daughter in third grade: "Make new friends, But keep the old; One is silver, The other is gold." Or, as Chairman Mao said: "Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a thousand schools of thought contend"

8th September 2007, 05:42 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Antonio Very nice. Unfortunately I do not understand why you would combine the two styles? The baca baca on Moro kris have a definate function by keeping the blade anchored to the hilt during combat the tanto use pegs for that same reason. The knife itself is still aesthetically pleasing but the style is total fantasy. Sorry but I like traditional styles better when it comes to enthograhic weapons I am a purest at heart. Lew

8th September 2007, 05:56 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	AC, You sure cross a lot of boundaries! I see that "Paolo is from the Philippines and he is working in Manila." I would be quite interested in responses from his countrymen. As a collector of Japanese and Philippine weaponry, I also like the more traditional approaches to these pieces and must agree with Lew.

9th September 2007, 04:24 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	You might be right Antonio, but i'm sorry that you think this is not the right place to post this creation. It is here though, so i will comment on it. While i am not as a rule opposed to such hybrids i don't think this one works for me. Of course the first question that crosses my mind in a case such as this is why do such a thing in the first place? In my mind to give it validity it must have a logical purpose. While i can see that this is a masterfully created piece it doesn't really speak to me on any level, nor do i understand the desire to create such a thing and unlike some other opinions i don't find it particularly asthetically pleasing either. Placing baca-baca on this piece seems a rather superficial way to imply Moro cultural identity. And the second one that pierces the blade just disturbs me for some reason. It also seems unnecessary for your purpose since many Moro kris have only one. I am sorry that you didn't receive the approval that you were hoping for and received on other forums for this piece. I think we do tend to be a group of purists at heart here. I am not sure that means this should never have been posted here and i do hope that the Mods don't take your advice to delete this post. Opinions are just that and should be aired freely. And if you think about it, it is probably useful information for you to know how ethnographic collectors might respond to such a creation. I would also like to comment that i think it best not to go back to a post and delete passages that another forumite has already responded to unless it is obvious that it is truly offensive and not just a regretful wording. It only adds confusion and breaks continuity.

9th September 2007, 05:12 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I would suggest that Antonio's piece does belong here as it was manufactured by hand and is, even if a fusion of two differing cultures, still falls under the definition of Ethnographic . I always enjoy seeing the products of your fertile imagination Antonio.

9th September 2007, 05:37 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Antonio and his chum are working to very high standards. There are obvious problems of mixing styles without a living reason to do so. This is a good example showing how quality workmanship and design can be far removed from art. I think to see hybridisation as art look no further than the Mauser inspired sword, it speaks to you very sympathetically.

9th September 2007, 06:12 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, can we discuss things without rancor? Some may like the dagger, some may not, some may think it is too "fantasy" to qualify as ethnographic, all this is fine. I just think there is no sense getting personal. I'd rather see similar re-interpretations ( that exercise imagination) than pseudo-faithful renditions of authentic weapons that pretend to be real but are not. This one is an "in-your-face" dagger and is fun to look at. For me, a modern-made sword replicating the old pattern always carries a whiff of a commercial fake. This one does not pretend to look antique and authentic: it is art. Judge it by its own standards.

9th September 2007, 06:51 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I would like to note that although it is obvious that the piece created by Antonio and Paolo is entirely an artistic creation, I found it fascinating to see how it was done as well as the harmony between designer and artisan. While this may not be well placed in a forum dedicated to preserving the history and development of ethnographic edged weapons forms, it presents very interesting perspective on how hybrid weapons often evolved historically. As Tim well pointed out, the 'Mauser sword' item being an excellent case in point. I share the same passion for preserving not only the history of the weapons we study, but the weapons themselves ,and always dread those who carry out overcleanings, excessive 'restorations' and of course fakes and fraudulent composites. This creation was none of these. In my opinion, the creation that Antonio presented was a beautiful piece of art, not intended as a reproduction nor as a representative example, and I very much appreciated seeing it. I realize how passionately those here that are involved in these weapons perceive them, and am constantly amazed at the knowledge on them that is shared here, but cannot see how this creation could be construed as anything but art. Best regards, Jim

9th September 2007, 07:40 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Its art Jim but not as we know it. at last. There is a big industry, those art print shops in every big town that sell art for people who do not like art.

10th September 2007, 12:18 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Well said Rand! It seems that a very wise man once told me that weapons do not have geographic boundaries! That would seem to imply geopolitical and cultural boundaries were included. I have always believed that even weapons quite basic in form often subtlely carry art in the sense of certain features or symbolism. These of course may have been derived from other cultures or influences and in many cases have no known purpose other than long forgotten symbolism or vestigial presence. One example would be the placement of notches in the back of the blade of Meditteranean knives which ended up being a feature in the famed Bowie knife. As far as is known, the reason for this feature has no pratical purpose and any symbolism is long forgotten, yet the early Bowies often carried the feature. Best regards, Jim

10th September 2007, 03:01 AM	#21
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ANTONIO IS MOTIVATED BY A SEARCH FOR NEW IDEAS NOT THE AMASSING OF A COLLECTION OF OLD FORMS AS WE ARE. I FIND HIS IDEAS AND DRIVE INTERESTING AND HAVE NO PROBLEM UNDERSTANDING THEM OR SEEING THEM ON THIS FORUM. AS MONTY PHYTHONS FLYING CIRCUS SAID "AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT"! TO BORROW FROM OTHER FORMS IS THE ONLY CHOICE AS FINDING SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DONE ANYWHERE THAT IS STILL FUNCTIONAL WOULD ALMOST BE IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. PERSONALLY I FIND A PURE JAPANESE FORM MORE ASTHETICALLY PLEASING ,BUT DO FIND IT INTERESTING TO SEE THE KNIFE AND THE IDEAS BEHIND ITS CREATION. THANKS ANTONIO FOR FUN I WILL NOW CREATE TWO NEW FORMS OF PHILIPPINO MONSTER HEAD BOLO'S THE FIRST WILL BE FOR REPUBLICANS IT WILL HAVE A BLADE AND SCABBARD SHAPED LIKE A DOLLAR SIGN AND THE MONSTER HEAD WILL BE HILLARY THE SECOND WILL BE FOR DEMOCRATS ITS BLADE AND SCABBARD WILL BE SHAPPED LIKE A PEACE SIGN AND SAY END THE WAR NOW THE MONSTER HEAD OF COURSE WILL BE GEORGE BUSH. I HOPE THIS WILL BE TAKEN AS INTENDED AND NOT OFFEND, ITS DIFFICULT TO MAKE POLITICAL JOKES UNLESS YOU ARE JAY LENNO. I PERSONALLY CONSIDER SWORDS OR FANCY DAGGERS MADE TODAY THAT ARE NOT MADE FOR ACTUAL USE AS ART. THOSE MADE FOR USE ARE MOSTLY TOOLS AND ONLY BECOME WEAPONS NOW IF USED BY THE MILITARY, GANGS OR CRIMINALS. EVEN THOSE USED FOR MARTIAL ART PRACTICE ARE MORE OF A TOOL AS WE DON'T PLAN TO ACTUALLY GO OUT FOR A SWORD FIGHT IN OUR SOCIETY THESE DAYS. ANTONIO FEEL FREE TO USE THESE DESIGN IF YOU WISH THEY COME FROM MY DEMENTED SCHOOL OF DESIGN

10th September 2007, 03:32 AM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well Antonio, i am sorry to see that you are choosing to leave what could be a very good discussion. I do think that you have misinterpreted a few of my statement however, so i will respond even if you choose not to. Firstly i never meant to imply that you were seeking applause. Though i do find it interesting that your first two responses to comments here was just to say "nuff said" as if you weren't interested in hearing any more commentary in this direction. Secondly, i clearly stated that i am not opposed to hybrids as a rule, it is just that i would like to see them as a logical evolution, not just the whim of the maker to create something new for art's sake only. I think your agrument on the richness of mixed cultures misses the point. When cultures mix, either by immigration or forced diaspora, the resulting cultural fusion and the artifacts which are created by it are part of an organic evolution created by time, place and necessity. Enslaved Africans mix with Spanish culture in Cuba and Rhumba, Son and eventually Latin Jazz are created as expression of a newly formed cultural hybrid. This is not what has happened in the creation of your tanto/kris. For me it is a forced hybrid with no cultural imperative. This doesn't mean it isn't "art", but as a member of the comedy troupe Monty Python once remarked, "I may not know art, but i know what i like". BTW, I do enjoy much Classical, Jazz and Rock and Roll music and also many of the fusions the exist in between. Lastly, i also enjoy a good discussion. I am also well aware that many of our favorite weapons are the products of cultural fusions and evolution. These evolutions are generally logical and organic in nature. They don't develop because some local smith wakes up one morning and says hey, what would happen if i combined a scimitar with a kukhri. As for the evolution of the kris and the keris, my feelings are mixed. It is still possible that the Indonesian keris could be determined to be a still living and therefore evolving blade form. Certainly they do not hold the place in the culture that they once did, but they still serve as family pusaka for many, they are held in esteem in royal regalia, they still serve ceremonial function as in weddings, etc. If you pay attention to the new blades that are being made in Madura and Jawa you will sometimes see new features which could be seen as an evolution in the form. The Moro kris seems more a blade of the past to me. This doesn't mean that it is not still held in some high esteem culturally, but it doesn't seem to still be in high end production like it's Indonesian cousin is. It doesn't seem that there is any need for it to evolve as a blade form. The bottom line is that you are welcome to find all the inspiration you can in ethnographic weapons and create all the hybrids that seem fit. In fact i encourage you in this. But you must keep in mind that i do not collect ethnographic weapons specifically for a love of metallurgy. It is the culture and history, the myth and the magick of the keris and kris that drive me to collect these wonderful weapons. I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form. Most custom knives do very little for me. I think that this might also be the case for many others involved in ethnographic weapons. So i think that it might be better if you could accept this as a different approach to edged weapons than your own. It doesn't mean i am ignorant of the roots ethnographic sword, nor of Jazz or cultural diversity. I am not trying to discourage you from your journey Antonio. I just have very little interest in it.

10th September 2007, 06:42 AM	#24
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	David, Just an exceptional post to clarify a couple of things. I chose you to reply to, but my answer was not directed at you personally. This being said, and having gone out and come back, I had the time to think about other associations in art, since what differs is my way of expression along with my interaction with Paolo Abrera. I disagree about the forced hybridization that you mention for various number of reasons which I'll fundament. 1. I had the biggest opportunity to see a large number of swords of all kinds at the HOS exhibition and do allow me the right to be able to assimilate. I did not do it without seeing the real thing. Actually the original design was enriched by Paolo's input. I do know what is the reason for the baca-baca. 2. Cultural hybridization nowadays take much less time with the information society, otherwise any American smith who is doing a Japanese style sword would be subject to your invalidation. Cultural appropriations are, therefore, today of a different level and time. 3. No one objected to the incorporation of distant Japanese culture in paintings by the Impressionists nor organic shapes of Art Nouveau are exempt of Orientalist or even pseudo orientalistic influences. There was no direct contact. 4. Pablo Picasso was never in Africa, but it wasn't less legitimate of him to "take possession" of African masks shapes in his Demoiselles D'Avignon that led to Cubism. Actually you are obviously entitled to like it or not. I did in fact anticipate what I just wrote above when I said that in the webpage that *Then, slowly, hybridation as a cultural process of appropriation, viewed exogenously so as not to be bound by traditions, as too often, too much knowledge becomes to restrictive of creative freedom.* This was already written before the knife was finished. I understand that once you say I have very little interest in custom knife making as a modern art form you have already blocked any possibility of liking anything because you already carry with you a parti pris. I do remain open to both ancient and new experimentations. That is why I decided not to discuss. Because there is no discussion possible Cheers

10th September 2007, 07:54 AM	#26
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Just thought I would say this session of art appreciation 101 has been most interesting! and I am glad that Antonio rejoined us here. I would like to note that I honestly have always been focused on the study of antique arms and armor with focus on ethnographic edged weapons and have never really thought much about modern custom made edged weapons. Actually, I never really liked the idea of reproduction or custom pieces since they had no historical value so could not be studied or researched While I can claim no particular expertise in the study of art, I have very much enjoyed studying its historical applications and of course its considerations in the material culture associated with ethnographic studies. I do not believe that one must be an expert in art to genuinely appreciate it, and has has been seen here, certainly not to have adamate opinions on particular forms of it. When I first saw the weapon Antonio posted here, I was more than impressed by it, and realized that I could admire and enjoy viewing this weapon as art, at least in my own perception. My perspective on the study of antique edged weapons remains completely uncompromised, and I have gained new perspective on these custom weapons. Thank you very much Antonio for posting this beautiful example of well designed craftsmanship. Since we are all sharing our opinions, I wanted to express mine. Very best regards, Jim

10th September 2007, 09:31 AM	#27
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Antonio's work displays confidence, something needed to show it here, which is more than I can say for myself. In doing so the full spectrum of opinion must be expected.

10th September 2007, 02:32 PM	#28
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I like it, Antonio. Generally, I find most purely Japanese style swords a bit boring. The elements you've incorporated make this interesting for me. I'm always intrigued at the strong reactions (positive or negative) that art can evoke.

10th September 2007, 02:33 PM	#29
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Thanks Tim, my thoughts also. Antonio's work is an inspired piece of art, with ethnographic weapons as its source. As art, it does not need to mean anything in the original culture(s), nor be functional. Just something to appreciate for its form and elegance (not that traditional arms lack form and elegance ). A challenging piece, Antonio. Thanks for showing it here. Ian.

10th September 2007, 05:08 PM	#30
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Speaking as a moderator, I think the discussion has settled with a fair understanding on all sides, and I am happy to see that. Some feathers were ruffled (innovation & change tends to evoke that response), but I am very glad that the initial testiness has cooled off. In response to one unanswered question, whether or not this qualifies as an "ethnographic" weapon for the purposes of this forum, it of course pushes the boundries, as does the design itself. Having authored in part the mission statement of the forum, I can say that the intent to exclude "custom" knives was directed at contemporary blades that are either essentially reproductions (often of excellent quality) of historical forms, and modern designs that are not based on any particular historical model. It is hard to classify a design such as Antonios, but I think it is enough of a cultural expression, both as a reflection of past forms and as a contemporary reaction to these. Speaking as a "private citizen," I think the design is interesting and dramatic, and the workmanship is superb, but doesn't strike a cord with me personally. That is probably because I don't have a particularly strong interest in either Japanese or Philippine blades. After all, they are not dha. I do see a functional aspect of the baca baca, actually, as it substitutes for the habaki that appears on a traditional tanto. Hybridizations and interpretations, often dramatic ones, are a real part of the history of weapons. An example I posted on recently is the hybrid daab/katana/keris that is the subject of this thread.