Translation please...?

erikscollectables · 30th December 2008, 09:36 AM

Is there anybody on the forum who can tell me what this inscription is?
It is on a very old javanese blade, inscription is probably newer than the blade (might be 14th century blade) but it is old too, 19th century or earlier.

At first I thought arabic but I have confirmed it is not that.

In the meantime I heard two other options. Old javanese or a "magic" text by a local magician (Duku?)

Who knows more?

Regards, Erik

Kiai Carita · 30th December 2008, 11:25 AM

It is not Jawa script, and neither is it Arabic. Might not be a scrip at all.

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2008, 12:41 PM

Erik, you say it is on a very old Javanese blade.

Could we see the blade please?

Raden Usman Djogja · 30th December 2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Erik, you say it is on a very old Javanese blade.

Could we see the blade please?

Erik and Alan,

I am afraid it is not on a very old blade. To make sure, perhaps Erik could upload the whole picture.

OeS

Jentayu · 30th December 2008, 01:26 PM

Hi there....In my opinion the words are neither Javanese or arabic; however if we look at a glance the words do have a "crude" resemblance of the arabic "basmallah" that means "In the name of god". Just a wild guess..

erikscollectables · 30th December 2008, 01:37 PM

The blade. Wanted to save this for another discussion but here it is.

Some "specialists" here in the Netherlands had a look at this blade.
They all thought it was a very old blade maybefrom around the 14th century.

The style of the peksi was linked to Empu Supo (am not sure if this is the correct spelling of the name) and the blade they thought was from around the same period.

I myself have no opinion on this as my knowledge does not go this far, I am just repeating what I heard so far. What I do know that it was not made after 1950 (came here before that) and the metal is different from what I normally see on krisses. Thinner and somehow stronger and more flexible.
I like it a lot and think it is quite beautiful despite the fact that it should be washed.

David · 30th December 2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

The style of the peksi was linked to Empu Supo (am not sure if this is the correct spelling of the name) and the blade they thought was from around the same period..

I believe the name you are looking for is Mpu Sombro. The hole at the end of the twisted pesi was used to hang the keris from a string.
This is an interesting keris. Sorry that i can't help you with the inscription, though i do agree that it was probably added at a later date.

A. G. Maisey · 30th December 2008, 10:02 PM

Yes, an old blade, but the lettering I believe to be almost certainly a much later addition.

Very often we find that script applied to blades, and also other objects, is very far from perfectly executed, and is the result of an unlettered craftsman attempting to copy something from a local interpretation of an original script. A very knowledgeable scholar may sometimes be able to guess at what was intended, but most ordinary people, with ordinary levels of knowledge cannot.

If the gonjo were to be removed I believe we would find that the shape of the pesi is not original:- the base of the pesi, where it enters the gonjo, would probably be considerably larger than the body of the gonjo. I think that what we might be looking at here is a keris that has been turned into a definite talisman. The talismanic script was applied to an already old blade, and at the same time the pesi was twisted and a hole for suspension was provided.

Trying to give a tangguh from a photo is often a stupid thing to do, but being full of the Christmas spirit , I'm feeling a little bit stupid right now, so I'm offering two guesses for a possible tangguh:- Tuban, or Tuban-Pajajaran. Fourteenth century is supportable if we base our estimation of age on Javanese tradition, however, if we base our estimation of age on other grounds, 16th-17th century is more likely. In any case, its old.

I don't think we can hang this blade on either Mpu Supo, or on Mpu Sombro. Supo would probably want to stick it into anybody who associated this level of workmanship with him, and Sombro is not known for blades of this size or refinement.

ganjawulung · 30th December 2008, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, an old blade, but the lettering I believe to be almost certainly a much later addition.

I agree with Alan. And the "glue" between ganja and the blade is probably newer glue too. Kind of "epoxy" glue. Anyway, IMO it is an old "kebo lajer" (mahesa lajer) blade..

GANJAWULUNG

erikscollectables · 31st December 2008, 08:40 AM

Thanks guys for the input and especially Alan.
With the limited resources I have in books I will see how far I can get with studying a bit more on this with your inputs.

Regards, Erik

Dajak · 3rd January 2009, 05:54 PM

It looks like the ganjar is not original to the blade .

Ben

erikscollectables · 3rd January 2009, 07:57 PM

Anything specific that makes you think so?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

It looks like the ganjar is not original to the blade .

Ben

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2009, 09:30 PM

Looks original to me.

erikscollectables · 3rd January 2009, 09:34 PM

Alan,

You are spot on. I just took the blad from its place on the bookshelve and had a good look at the gonja from the top.
The hole for the peksi is indeed a bit larger and had been filled up (with metal as it looks but defenitely filled up!).

To me the gonjo seems original th the keris.

So a change of peksi form and the addition of text to make it a talisman.
Who would have done this and why with this keris?

Can you add more?

Thanks, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If the gonjo were to be removed I believe we would find that the shape of the pesi is not original:- the base of the pesi, where it enters the gonjo, would probably be considerably larger than the body of the gonjo. I think that what we might be looking at here is a keris that has been turned into a definite talisman. The talismanic script was applied to an already old blade, and at the same time the pesi was twisted and a hole for suspension was provided.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2009, 03:15 AM

The filling is either plastic steel, or Araldite mixed with iron filings. The Araldite/iron filing mix has been used in Jawa probably since the stuff became available years ago. It acts as a preservative to stop erosion of the blade base, apart from assisting the fixing of a gonjo.It took me a long time to come to terms with this practice and accept it, but when you adopt the mindset that it is your responsibility to preserve that which has been left by previous generations, for future generations, and you discard the self-centered egotism of the "original" concept, its not too difficult to understand the rationale.
Araldite and similar products are very easy to remove with heat, and whilst they are in place they do provide very good protection.

As to why the addition of script and the gonjo alteration was done, I have no idea.

I could create a lot speculation, but I don't know, so one guess is as good as another.

erikscollectables · 4th January 2009, 10:06 AM

Alan,

Those options sound like they are quite recent. I am still sure the keris came to the Netherlands before 1950 and whatever was changed was before that date. And for the text I am still quite sure it is from the 19th century and not for "collectors" only...

I'll try to make a picture from the filling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The filling is either plastic steel, or Araldite mixed with iron filings. The Araldite/iron filing mix has been used in Jawa probably since the stuff became available years ago. It acts as a preservative to stop erosion of the blade base, apart from assisting the fixing of a gonjo.It took me a long time to come to terms with this practice and accept it, but when you adopt the mindset that it is your responsibility to preserve that which has been left by previous generations, for future generations, and you discard the self-centered egotism of the "original" concept, its not too difficult to understand the rationale.
Araldite and similar products are very easy to remove with heat, and whilst they are in place they do provide very good protection.

As to why the addition of script and the gonjo alteration was done, I have no idea.

I could create a lot speculation, but I don't know, so one guess is as good as another.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2009, 11:36 AM

You could well be right, Erik, but this type of filling was only possible with the introduction of epoxy resins. I do not know of any older method of filling that was used.If you are absolutely certain that it came to Holland pre-1950, then this filling job must have been done in Holland.

Re the text, can you please explain to me why you are so certain that it was added in the 19th century?

Speaking for myself, I can see nothing that would indicate to me when it was added, nor why.

As I have said previously, I could speculate a lot. But speculation is not necessarily actuality.

Erik, perhaps I should add this:- I have seen this type of thing many, many times. I'm not looking at something unfamiliar, to me, this keris is as usual as it would be for you to look at, say, a car number plate. I've seen this lettering added to keris that had been stored in a cupboard in a warehouse since the 1920's; I've also seen it added to keris that had been altered within the last couple of weeks. But I still cannot tell from looking at it when it might have been done, unless I know---positively know---something else about the keris, such as the fact that it is wrapped in 1928 newspaper and that it belonged to the father of a friend of my wife.
The filling is something that is equally usual, but I've never seen anything else but a modern epoxy type adhesive used.

Raden Usman Djogja · 4th January 2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Erik and Alan,

I am afraid it is not on a very old blade. To make sure, perhaps Erik could upload the whole picture.

OeS

dear Erik,

my guess was wrong.
your keris looks original and beautiful.
about its incription?
i do not want to make second mistake

imho, the discussion about the keris and inscription should be separated.
whatever the result of discussion about its inscription, whether it is new or old, it does not change my opinion that your keris looks good and original.

warm salam,
OeS

erikscollectables · 4th January 2009, 04:31 PM

Alan,

The text might be from any date before 1950, that it is earlier than that is just specultation from my side, not based on any facts. Maybe the picture will shed light on this as it is way beyond my knowledge...

Regards, Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You could well be right, Erik, but this type of filling was only possible with the introduction of epoxy resins. I do not know of any older method of filling that was used.If you are absolutely certain that it came to Holland pre-1950, then this filling job must have been done in Holland.

Re the text, can you please explain to me why you are so certain that it was added in the 19th century?

Speaking for myself, I can see nothing that would indicate to me when it was added, nor why.

As I have said previously, I could speculate a lot. But speculation is not necessarily actuality.

Erik, perhaps I should add this:- I have seen this type of thing many, many times. I'm not looking at something unfamiliar, to me, this keris is as usual as it would be for you to look at, say, a car number plate. I've seen this lettering added to keris that had been stored in a cupboard in a warehouse since the 1920's; I've also seen it added to keris that had been altered within the last couple of weeks. But I still cannot tell from looking at it when it might have been done, unless I know---positively know---something else about the keris, such as the fact that it is wrapped in 1928 newspaper and that it belonged to the father of a friend of my wife.
The filling is something that is equally usual, but I've never seen anything else but a modern epoxy type adhesive used.

erikscollectables · 5th January 2009, 07:37 PM

Here is a photo of the peksi hole in the ganja.
The best I could do without daylight.

30th December 2008, 09:36 AM	#1
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Translation please...? Is there anybody on the forum who can tell me what this inscription is? It is on a very old javanese blade, inscription is probably newer than the blade (might be 14th century blade) but it is old too, 19th century or earlier. At first I thought arabic but I have confirmed it is not that. In the meantime I heard two other options. Old javanese or a "magic" text by a local magician (Duku?) Who knows more? Regards, Erik Attached Images

30th December 2008, 11:25 AM	#2
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Not Jawa and not Arabic It is not Jawa script, and neither is it Arabic. Might not be a scrip at all.

30th December 2008, 01:37 PM	#6
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Blade The blade. Wanted to save this for another discussion but here it is. Some "specialists" here in the Netherlands had a look at this blade. They all thought it was a very old blade maybefrom around the 14th century. The style of the peksi was linked to Empu Supo (am not sure if this is the correct spelling of the name) and the blade they thought was from around the same period. I myself have no opinion on this as my knowledge does not go this far, I am just repeating what I heard so far. What I do know that it was not made after 1950 (came here before that) and the metal is different from what I normally see on krisses. Thinner and somehow stronger and more flexible. I like it a lot and think it is quite beautiful despite the fact that it should be washed. Attached Images

31st December 2008, 08:40 AM	#10
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Thanks guys! Thanks guys for the input and especially Alan. With the limited resources I have in books I will see how far I can get with studying a bit more on this with your inputs. Regards, Erik

5th January 2009, 07:37 PM	#20
erikscollectables Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 318	Peksi Here is a photo of the peksi hole in the ganja. The best I could do without daylight. Attached Images

30th December 2008, 12:41 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Erik, you say it is on a very old Javanese blade. Could we see the blade please?

30th December 2008, 01:26 PM	#5
Jentayu Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 61	Hi there....In my opinion the words are neither Javanese or arabic; however if we look at a glance the words do have a "crude" resemblance of the arabic "basmallah" that means "In the name of god". Just a wild guess..

30th December 2008, 10:02 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Yes, an old blade, but the lettering I believe to be almost certainly a much later addition. Very often we find that script applied to blades, and also other objects, is very far from perfectly executed, and is the result of an unlettered craftsman attempting to copy something from a local interpretation of an original script. A very knowledgeable scholar may sometimes be able to guess at what was intended, but most ordinary people, with ordinary levels of knowledge cannot. If the gonjo were to be removed I believe we would find that the shape of the pesi is not original:- the base of the pesi, where it enters the gonjo, would probably be considerably larger than the body of the gonjo. I think that what we might be looking at here is a keris that has been turned into a definite talisman. The talismanic script was applied to an already old blade, and at the same time the pesi was twisted and a hole for suspension was provided. Trying to give a tangguh from a photo is often a stupid thing to do, but being full of the Christmas spirit , I'm feeling a little bit stupid right now, so I'm offering two guesses for a possible tangguh:- Tuban, or Tuban-Pajajaran. Fourteenth century is supportable if we base our estimation of age on Javanese tradition, however, if we base our estimation of age on other grounds, 16th-17th century is more likely. In any case, its old. I don't think we can hang this blade on either Mpu Supo, or on Mpu Sombro. Supo would probably want to stick it into anybody who associated this level of workmanship with him, and Sombro is not known for blades of this size or refinement.

3rd January 2009, 05:54 PM	#11
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It looks like the ganjar is not original to the blade . Ben

3rd January 2009, 09:30 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Looks original to me.

4th January 2009, 03:15 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	The filling is either plastic steel, or Araldite mixed with iron filings. The Araldite/iron filing mix has been used in Jawa probably since the stuff became available years ago. It acts as a preservative to stop erosion of the blade base, apart from assisting the fixing of a gonjo.It took me a long time to come to terms with this practice and accept it, but when you adopt the mindset that it is your responsibility to preserve that which has been left by previous generations, for future generations, and you discard the self-centered egotism of the "original" concept, its not too difficult to understand the rationale. Araldite and similar products are very easy to remove with heat, and whilst they are in place they do provide very good protection. As to why the addition of script and the gonjo alteration was done, I have no idea. I could create a lot speculation, but I don't know, so one guess is as good as another.

4th January 2009, 11:36 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	You could well be right, Erik, but this type of filling was only possible with the introduction of epoxy resins. I do not know of any older method of filling that was used.If you are absolutely certain that it came to Holland pre-1950, then this filling job must have been done in Holland. Re the text, can you please explain to me why you are so certain that it was added in the 19th century? Speaking for myself, I can see nothing that would indicate to me when it was added, nor why. As I have said previously, I could speculate a lot. But speculation is not necessarily actuality. Erik, perhaps I should add this:- I have seen this type of thing many, many times. I'm not looking at something unfamiliar, to me, this keris is as usual as it would be for you to look at, say, a car number plate. I've seen this lettering added to keris that had been stored in a cupboard in a warehouse since the 1920's; I've also seen it added to keris that had been altered within the last couple of weeks. But I still cannot tell from looking at it when it might have been done, unless I know---positively know---something else about the keris, such as the fact that it is wrapped in 1928 newspaper and that it belonged to the father of a friend of my wife. The filling is something that is equally usual, but I've never seen anything else but a modern epoxy type adhesive used.