european blade?

[Ascalon]

I have this pata with an european blade i think. No mark but a text incomplete in latin: pugno pro patria.
If any body could point me to a possible place and date of manufacture for the blade that would be great.
Thanks in Advice, here are some pictures.
regards
Emmanuel

[fernando]

Hi Emannuel,
Difficult to precise a date, as mottos are sometimes in fashion for long periods.
PUGNO PRO PATRIA, as know, is latin for (I) FIGHT FOR (THE) MOTHERLAND.
It started being inscribed in Portugal in the second half XVII century, assumedly an allegory to the restoration of Portuguese independence.
As traditionaly several or most pata blades were of Portuguese origin, we can conclude this one is Portuguese and most probably from such late XVII or, in alternative, from the XVIII century.
Also not a bad idea to try and find further little marks in the end or beginning of the text, being symbols of the time period or from the blade smith.
You should however consider that i am no expert; all my coments are just a guess made by my limited knowledge.
Other more qualified members will know better.
Fernando

[katana]

Hi Emannuel,
looks to be an very good 'fighting' Pata.....many of the more elaborate ones tend to be ceremonial. My only concern is the wooden (?) handle seems to be in excellent condition....but, of course, it could have been replaced. Could you take some pictures of the blade 'fixing' ...including a view from the inside of the 'gauntlet', where the blade is attached. Thank you

Regards David

[Ascalon]

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Emannuel,
Difficult to precise a date, as mottos are sometimes in fashion for long periods.
PUGNO PRO PATRIA, as know, is latin for (I) FIGHT FOR (THE) MOTHERLAND.
It started being inscribed in Portugal in the second half XVII century, assumedly an allegory to the restoration of Portuguese independence.
As traditionaly several or most pata blades were of Portuguese origin, we can conclude this one is Portuguese and most probably from such late XVII or, in alternative, from the XVIII century.
Also not a bad idea to try and find further little marks in the end or beginning of the text, being symbols of the time period or from the blade smith.
You should however consider that i am no expert; all my coments are just a guess made by my limited knowledge.
Other more qualified members will know better.
Fernando

You are far too humble my friend! Your expertise shows through in your gently placed comments, and I think your assessment is exactly right. If I understand correctly, the very term 'firangi/phirangi' is more literally derived from the meaning 'Portuguese' as described in India. I am not with notes or references at the moment, but as I recall the Mahrattas, with whom these patas are believed to have originated, maintained key trade activity with the Portuguese on western coasts of India.

The use of the pata seems to be essentially a slashing action weapon, which also seems to have evolved out of the transverse grip katar. While these are typically considered armour piercing 'punch' daggers, they are actually from the slashing type forms (which are thrust also) used by Mahrattas.

These pata are were used (I believe some still are) in martial arts oriented performances in places in India, used in pairs. I am inclined to believe that these would not be mounted with valued heirloom blades though.

I would presume the simpler, undecorated forms to be combat weapons perhaps, and likely refurbished blades which remained in use for many generations,, where valued blades, such as this were handed down.

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi Jim,
Some touch ups ?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... If I understand correctly, the very term 'firangi/phirangi' is more literally derived from the meaning 'Portuguese' as described in India ...

It doesn't literaly mean Portuguese, but it was atributed to them by association. Firangi derives from Frank (Frangue in portuguese); as the Portuguese were coming from the West like the Franks, started being conotated with the same term, by the first time Vasco da Gama touched the Malabar; the term was then generalized in the various Asian languages.
This Frank attribution to western christians started in the Carlos Magno period; before that, the Arabs used to indistinctily call all christians, during the first centuries of Islam culture, Rûmi or Rumes, meanning Romans.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am not with notes or references at the moment, but as I recall the Mahrattas, with whom these patas are believed to have originated, maintained key trade activity with the Portuguese on western coasts of India ...

Indeed a very useful destination for portuguese sword blades, namely those locally forbidden by Royal law, as too long to be used in their homeland (the so called 'off mark' swords=rapiers); this, i think, would make it plausible that some pata swords are so rather long. But these Mahratta guys also ended up pushing the Portuguese out of the area ( in the XVIII century?), so i have read.

Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent and most helpful information Fernando! I wasnt sure on the firangi term, but certainly makes sense...didnt know about the Arab term for Christians either. Interesting that the Christians used the term Moors rather comprehensively for Muslims, after the term Saracens earlier, while the Arabs used the Rumes term.
Following the development of terminology is fascinating in our studies, and really helps as we examine contemporary narratives.
Thanks very much,
All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

firangi?


Didn't those guys appear on STTNG..?





Seriously,

The term Moor basically means "dark", on account of the dark djilabas they chose to wear. Moro, Marron, Marroon, Mauritania. Same word root.

The arabs mostly called us "dhimmi", or "guilty". They mostly used the term Rumi on Byzantines and Greeks, if I recall correctly.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent and most helpful information Fernando! I wasnt sure on the firangi term, but certainly makes sense...didnt know about the Arab term for Christians either. Interesting that the Christians used the term Moors rather comprehensively for Muslims, after the term Saracens earlier, while the Arabs used the Rumes term.
Following the development of terminology is fascinating in our studies, and really helps as we examine contemporary narratives.
Thanks very much,
All the best,
Jim

[ward]

The arabs mostly called us "dhimmi", or "guilty". They mostly used the term Rumi on Byzantines and Greeks, if I recall correctly.
Dhimmi means 'protected' in Arabic, it refers to non-Muslims in a political context. I've never heard it trasnlated as guilty. Rumi referred to Byzantines early in Ottoman history but the word also meant Ottomans later on.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ward

[I] ...Rumi referred to Byzantines early in Ottoman history but the word also meant Ottomans later on.

In strict terms ...

RUMES WERE INHABITANTS OF ANCIENT TRACIA, LATER ROMANIA, AND THEIR NATURALS ROMANIS, TO WHOM THE TURKS CALLED RUMELI AND WE CALLED RUMES (Diogo do Couto 1542-1616).

In this picture, painted by an anonimous Portuguese traveller in the XVI century, Rumes as depicted inhabited the straight of Meca and Baçorá.
According to Gaspar Correia (1495-1561), they used various weapons, namely wide and long swords, and they were also great shooters.

Fernando

.

[celtan]

Hi Ward,
I don't speak arabic. Got the translation from Rober Spencer's"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam". Seems there are two different meanings for the same word.
Best
M

Originally Posted by ward

The arabs mostly called us "dhimmi", or "guilty". They mostly used the term Rumi on Byzantines and Greeks, if I recall correctly.
Dhimmi means 'protected' in Arabic, it refers to non-Muslims in a political context. I've never heard it trasnlated as guilty. Rumi referred to Byzantines early in Ottoman history but the word also meant Ottomans later on.

[celtan]

Interesting.

Rumanians were christians, but these have a definite muslim/turkish appearance...

The Meca and Basra Straits lie on opposite sides of Saudi Arabia, Rumania lies in South Eastern Europe. Perhaps the Rumes mentioned and portrayed were arabic descendants of Romanians?

BTW, his sword resembles the german "malchus" falchion from another EA thread.

M

Originally Posted by fernando

In strict terms ...

RUMES WERE INHABITANTS OF ANCIENT TRACIA, LATER ROMANIA, AND THEIR NATURALS ROMANIS, TO WHOM THE TURKS CALLED RUMELI AND WE CALLED RUMES (Diogo do Couto 1542-1616).

In this picture, painted by an anonimous Portuguese traveller in the XVI century, Rumes as depicted inhabited the straight of Meca and Baçorá.
According to Gaspar Correia (1495-1561), they used various weapons, namely wide and long swords, and they were also great shooters.

Fernando

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

Interesting.

Rumanians were christians, but these have a definite muslim/turkish appearance...

These aquareles were the first depiction of peoples ever made 'on the field'; the author was certainly a shrewd observer but not a schoolled painter, instead visibly a naïve artist.
The description of weaponry by Correia (or and other cronichlers)may not necessarily coincide with the designs.

Originally Posted by celtan

... The Meca and Basra Straits lie on opposite sides of Saudi Arabia, Rumania lies in South Eastern Europe. Perhaps the Rumes mentioned and portrayed were arabic descendants of Romanians?

Peoples move and migrate; when Gaspar Correia reported on the Rumes type of weaponry, they were participating in the first siege of Diu (1538).

Fernando

[fernando]

Frangue (Frank) in malay, is peringgi, and farangi or frangi in Egiptian dialect or Persian, literaly meaning «FRANK».

[ausjulius]

interesting with the use of ferangi, Frangue , feranghi... ect is common in most of asian and the middle east to describe either europeans or european products. imparticular cannons......
i recall that the chinese ad vietnamese development of ball firing cannons is both linked to imported frankish cannons..
and if im not mistaken there is a chinese work for cannon that contains their symbol for the franks....
this is odd.... it is strange the technology traveled so far and people still new where it came from , i guess maybe the mongols or other nomads like the bulgars,, tatars ect may have been responceable for this ,, as these cultures had direct contact with both the far east and western europe....

another poin might be because of the distributation of moslems.. and the fact that the convege on mecca regulary that the term spread this way along with the frankish cannons.........