Kentucky Show Barung

Spunjer · 22nd February 2016, 01:15 AM

picked up this barung at the show yesterday. at first glance, it looks like a typical piece, but i liked it because the scabbard appears to be original with the blade.
got home and started cleaning the blade since it was covered with grime. as it started to get cleaned up, i noticed a crack in the middle of the blade, which immediately reminded me of a twistcore kris. at this point, i still can't see any lamination patterns so i figure i might as well etch it. after etching it, i noticed the pattern was quite unusual, in that it was creating a chevron pattern. then it hit me. they do exist...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=18

i stand corrected

kai · 22nd February 2016, 01:31 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

i noticed a crack in the middle of the blade, which immediately reminded me of a twistcore kris. at this point, i still can't see any lamination patterns so i figure i might as well etch it. after etching it, i noticed the pattern was quite unusual, in that it was creating a chevron pattern. then it hit me. they do exist...

Congrats, that's a neat and important find!

Did you etch with ferric chloride? Or vinegar only? It would be great to get the contrast as bold as possible to document the pattern in detail. Easy to reduce the contrast after a foto session if deemed too heavy.

It does seem that the smith was working at his limits though - really tough to keep the pattern reasonably intact when spreading out the forging that much! I do wonder why we haven't seen examples with several rows of twistcore as found with the other (and more slender) Moro blades.

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 22nd February 2016, 02:19 AM

strictly vinegar, Kai. as for the pattern itself, i don't think i can get it better than that. just to know that it's twistcore is good enough, lol. personally, i don't like when the FeCl is used as an etching agent since it gives that burnt look...

and to think i passed by this particular piece and just looked at it countless times for a couple of days before finally pulling the trigger.

additional pics. these were taken while i was in the process of etching it

CCUAL · 22nd February 2016, 04:59 AM

blade is 21" long, 2 1/2" wide, 1/2" thick.

DaveS · 22nd February 2016, 05:27 AM

Ron: Great Find. Yes, it always feels good when you run across something totally unexpected like this barong. I felt the same way when i decided to clean up and etch a campilon that i had for years only to discover that it was a twist-core. This barong does seem to have a somewhat strange twist-core though. It looks more like a star pattern than a twist as we are all more familiar with, although i'm sure seeing the blade in person it probably is much easier to see the pattern. Anyway, i knew there had to be one out there, and if there is one there has to be more. Congrats..........Dave.

Spunjer · 22nd February 2016, 12:21 PM

Thank you, Dave.
i believe Gavin has one as well. would be interested to see the pattern on his barung.
yeah, i'm surprised that there's not more out there, given that there's relatively a lot of twistcore krises that came from sulu...

Battara · 22nd February 2016, 03:59 PM

Folks I saw this at the show and it is truly an older piece. And then to get a twist core - SCORE!

CCUAL · 22nd February 2016, 05:23 PM

I had taken this photos my self about 7 yrs ago. This twist core Barung is 21" long 3" wide and the spine is 1/2" thick (compare to the 1/4" standard patterned Barung Blades) and it tapers a bit not much half way to the tip. Very heavy! If you have a twist-core kris in your arsenal, compare that to your regular patterned blades, twist-core blades are way heavier and robust, now, put that in Barung blades! For study purposes only.

CharlesS · 22nd February 2016, 05:57 PM

...and don't forget the lovely, finely worked hilt carving and unique copper pegged scabbard!!

AND, that's the original tight rattan...all with the lovely glossy patina we all love!!

I saw this one with Battara, Rsword, and Spunjer and it's, indeed, a lovely and interesting piece.

Sajen · 22nd February 2016, 08:54 PM

Hello Ron,

congrats for this nice find. What you don't see at the first glance is most of the time the enjoyable surprise!

Regards,
Detlef

kai · 23rd February 2016, 12:39 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

strictly vinegar, Kai. as for the pattern itself, i don't think i can get it better than that. just to know that it's twistcore is good enough, lol. personally, i don't like when the FeCl is used as an etching agent since it gives that burnt look...

I fully agree on the aesthetics and prefer vinegar myself. However, ferric chloride gives a stronger contrast and often more crisp lines for documentation/analysis: just go for a quick etch, take pics, and wash several times in diluted vinegar; after a quick repolish, hot vinegar gives the preferred final etch for storage.

There seem to be a few remaining patches of stubborn rust which I'd tackle first for safe long-term storage.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 23rd February 2016, 12:52 AM

Hello Dave,

Quote:

This barong does seem to have a somewhat strange twist-core though. It looks more like a star pattern than a twist as we are all more familiar with,

The appearance of twist core is heavily dependant on the exposure of the "core" - in addition, the blade smith seems to have opted for spreading out the pamor very much while forging the blade. This is quite unexpected since the usual Moro approach was to add additional rows of twist core to "fill empty space" as seen in tabas and kampilan (as well as the base of larger kris).

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 23rd February 2016, 12:54 AM

alright Kai, you win, lol..
kinda interested to see how it looks full-blown myself, so here it is etched with FeCl

kai · 23rd February 2016, 01:27 AM

Thanks, Ron, that was extremely fast!

Let me try to digest the pattern for a while...

I stand by my earlier comment that it seems the smith was working at his limits here. Certainly way better than what I could hope to achieve on a traditional forge though! Even trying to reproduce this pattern with plasticiline/FIMO will be a challenge.

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 23rd February 2016, 04:51 AM

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the chat today...I see my thoughts are aligned with some others and Kai seems to have knocked it on the head with stretched abilities...and with the better images here, stretched steel.

The smith could not have picked a harder weapon type with the asymmetrical single edged shape that these are....it seems better control comes from double edged Kris and spear.

After seeing these larger images here, whilst there is a twist to the steel types, but without the control or definition within the outer window of typically non pattern steel, I would place this as a good honest attempt at twist core forging rather than a twist core blade...It just doesn't have the aesthetics or control. The smith may have had many reasons for this pattern, a couple that come time mind is left over twisted rods with not enough metal to do much else that add it too other steel, or perhaps as you thought, an apprentice piece...regardless, it is a note worthy link in Moro blacksmithing and worth further study...perhaps Ric can chime in too?

For your reference, attached is a snap of mine. I uncased it for you today and gave it a scrub and oil...you can see the triple rows, certainly not as crisp as kris and spear and one row falters a little too but she's a genuine twistie Barong...sitting quietly above a cutlass sized curved Kampilan and scabbard.

Gavin

Battara · 23rd February 2016, 04:08 PM

Folks these are BEAUTIFUL! (when I grow up I may get one too............

)

VANDOO · 23rd February 2016, 05:50 PM

CONGRATULATIONS! ITS ALWAYS A FUN SURPRISE TO FIND MORE THAN YOU EXPECTED. I SEEM TO SEE A FIGURE IN THE PATTERN OF YOUR BLADE A SITTING MAN. PERHAPS YOU HAVE NOTICED HIM TOO.

DaveS · 24th February 2016, 03:41 AM

Gavin: Beautiful barong. Your example is one that i consider the closest to a real twist-core type of pattern. As i stated earlier, Ron's barong seems to be what most smiths would call a star-pattern rather than an out and out twist. Chris's barong seems to be a little closer, but to me anyway still seems to be more of what the damascus makers that i have talked to call a star type pattern. Regardless, these three barongs have to be the best patterned ones that i have ever seen in over thirty years of collecting.............Dave.

Spunjer · 25th February 2016, 03:20 PM

Thanks for everyone who made comments!
Just a few years ago, we were wondering if barungs with twistcores existed. So here it is. Something to compare for future reference. I believe this is the first post in regards to twistcore barungs.
Vandoo, that's a unique perspective. With the close proximity to Indonesia, that's not really far fetched. It's a whole different angle

22nd February 2016, 01:15 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Kentucky Show Barung picked up this barung at the show yesterday. at first glance, it looks like a typical piece, but i liked it because the scabbard appears to be original with the blade. got home and started cleaning the blade since it was covered with grime. as it started to get cleaned up, i noticed a crack in the middle of the blade, which immediately reminded me of a twistcore kris. at this point, i still can't see any lamination patterns so i figure i might as well etch it. after etching it, i noticed the pattern was quite unusual, in that it was creating a chevron pattern. then it hit me. they do exist... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=18 i stand corrected Attached Images

22nd February 2016, 02:19 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	strictly vinegar, Kai. as for the pattern itself, i don't think i can get it better than that. just to know that it's twistcore is good enough, lol. personally, i don't like when the FeCl is used as an etching agent since it gives that burnt look... and to think i passed by this particular piece and just looked at it countless times for a couple of days before finally pulling the trigger. additional pics. these were taken while i was in the process of etching it Attached Images

22nd February 2016, 04:59 AM	#4
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Yes, they do exist. blade is 21" long, 2 1/2" wide, 1/2" thick. Attached Images

22nd February 2016, 05:27 AM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Kentucky Show Barung Ron: Great Find. Yes, it always feels good when you run across something totally unexpected like this barong. I felt the same way when i decided to clean up and etch a campilon that i had for years only to discover that it was a twist-core. This barong does seem to have a somewhat strange twist-core though. It looks more like a star pattern than a twist as we are all more familiar with, although i'm sure seeing the blade in person it probably is much easier to see the pattern. Anyway, i knew there had to be one out there, and if there is one there has to be more. Congrats..........Dave.

22nd February 2016, 05:23 PM	#8
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Yes, they do exist. I had taken this photos my self about 7 yrs ago. This twist core Barung is 21" long 3" wide and the spine is 1/2" thick (compare to the 1/4" standard patterned Barung Blades) and it tapers a bit not much half way to the tip. Very heavy! If you have a twist-core kris in your arsenal, compare that to your regular patterned blades, twist-core blades are way heavier and robust, now, put that in Barung blades! For study purposes only. Attached Images

22nd February 2016, 12:21 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Thank you, Dave. i believe Gavin has one as well. would be interested to see the pattern on his barung. yeah, i'm surprised that there's not more out there, given that there's relatively a lot of twistcore krises that came from sulu...

22nd February 2016, 03:59 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Folks I saw this at the show and it is truly an older piece. And then to get a twist core - SCORE!

22nd February 2016, 05:57 PM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	...and don't forget the lovely, finely worked hilt carving and unique copper pegged scabbard!! AND, that's the original tight rattan...all with the lovely glossy patina we all love!! I saw this one with Battara, Rsword, and Spunjer and it's, indeed, a lovely and interesting piece. Last edited by CharlesS; 23rd February 2016 at 01:42 PM.

22nd February 2016, 08:54 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Ron, congrats for this nice find. What you don't see at the first glance is most of the time the enjoyable surprise! Regards, Detlef

23rd February 2016, 12:54 AM	#13
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	alright Kai, you win, lol.. kinda interested to see how it looks full-blown myself, so here it is etched with FeCl Attached Images

23rd February 2016, 01:27 AM	#14
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Thanks, Ron, that was extremely fast! Let me try to digest the pattern for a while... I stand by my earlier comment that it seems the smith was working at his limits here. Certainly way better than what I could hope to achieve on a traditional forge though! Even trying to reproduce this pattern with plasticiline/FIMO will be a challenge. Regards, Kai

23rd February 2016, 04:51 AM	#15
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Ron, Thanks for the chat today...I see my thoughts are aligned with some others and Kai seems to have knocked it on the head with stretched abilities...and with the better images here, stretched steel. The smith could not have picked a harder weapon type with the asymmetrical single edged shape that these are....it seems better control comes from double edged Kris and spear. After seeing these larger images here, whilst there is a twist to the steel types, but without the control or definition within the outer window of typically non pattern steel, I would place this as a good honest attempt at twist core forging rather than a twist core blade...It just doesn't have the aesthetics or control. The smith may have had many reasons for this pattern, a couple that come time mind is left over twisted rods with not enough metal to do much else that add it too other steel, or perhaps as you thought, an apprentice piece...regardless, it is a note worthy link in Moro blacksmithing and worth further study...perhaps Ric can chime in too? For your reference, attached is a snap of mine. I uncased it for you today and gave it a scrub and oil...you can see the triple rows, certainly not as crisp as kris and spear and one row falters a little too but she's a genuine twistie Barong...sitting quietly above a cutlass sized curved Kampilan and scabbard. Gavin Attached Images

23rd February 2016, 04:08 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Folks these are BEAUTIFUL! (when I grow up I may get one too............ )

23rd February 2016, 05:50 PM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRATULATIONS! ITS ALWAYS A FUN SURPRISE TO FIND MORE THAN YOU EXPECTED. I SEEM TO SEE A FIGURE IN THE PATTERN OF YOUR BLADE A SITTING MAN. PERHAPS YOU HAVE NOTICED HIM TOO. Attached Images

24th February 2016, 03:41 AM	#18
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Twist-core barong Gavin: Beautiful barong. Your example is one that i consider the closest to a real twist-core type of pattern. As i stated earlier, Ron's barong seems to be what most smiths would call a star-pattern rather than an out and out twist. Chris's barong seems to be a little closer, but to me anyway still seems to be more of what the damascus makers that i have talked to call a star type pattern. Regardless, these three barongs have to be the best patterned ones that i have ever seen in over thirty years of collecting.............Dave.

25th February 2016, 03:20 PM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Thanks for everyone who made comments! Just a few years ago, we were wondering if barungs with twistcores existed. So here it is. Something to compare for future reference. I believe this is the first post in regards to twistcore barungs. Vandoo, that's a unique perspective. With the close proximity to Indonesia, that's not really far fetched. It's a whole different angle