To take antique arm out of USA

erlikhan · 20th September 2005, 11:00 PM

Hi. I need a fast but also certain information please. My brother will fly here from USA and I request him to bring me my yataghan which he has bought and been keeping for me for some months. If he brings it in his luggage , could he face any problem because of taking 1- an antique item, 2- a long edged weapon out of USA and/or to take into plane even if not in his hand bag?

regards

MABAGANI · 20th September 2005, 11:15 PM

I'd recommend shipping it with insurance via ups, fedex etc., if its a piece you don't want to lose, it could get stolen through the airport baggage, besides the hassle of dealing with customs. If he gets to the airport and finds out he can't bring it through he's also faced with the problem of leaving it with someone there before he gets on the plane.

Rick · 20th September 2005, 11:15 PM

1. No

2. Must be packed in checked luggage (cargo not carry on) this can be risky bags are x-rayed and baggage handlers are not saints .

3. If the destination country is a CITES signatory and there are any prohibited materials incorporated in the weapon you will need a CITES certificate from the US stating that the item is antique for Customs at his destination (at the least If I understand the rules correctly) .

Best to have your relative check with US customs and his air carrier .

Finally I agree ; shipping would be best .

erlikhan · 20th September 2005, 11:40 PM

I see. thank you very much. Sure,were not the replies I'd prefer to hear

, as airport custom would be easier for me to handle than postal customs in the case shipment is caught and held by Turkish postal customs (Most probably they would let it as it is not a military item but a native etnoghraphic item) . Once, a friend of me brought 3 old bayonets with him to me by plane, and he said no problem occured in US check in. But as far as I understand from your comments, it is just a matter of luck and I must be ready to take risk and to face the worst too,right?

Mark · 21st September 2005, 01:56 AM

I expect that you will have more trouble getting it into Turkey than getting it out of the US. If it has an ivory handle, then Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) will apply, as Rick said. However, at least in the US, you are permitted to carry items as part of your personal belongings without having to get a permit. In that sense it may be better for him to carry it.

That's about all that I can contribute. What other people have said, I agree with, too.

VANDOO · 21st September 2005, 03:38 AM

I CAN'T ADD MUCH TO WHAT HAS BEEN SAID EXCEPT TO MAKE SURE YOUR ITEM IS VERY WELL PACKED IF EITHER SHIPPING OR TAKING IN A CHECKED BAG.
I ALWAYS CARRY MY STUFF IN A HARD SIDED SUITCASE WITH GOOD PACKING INSIDE AND HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS IN THE USA BUT THINGS HAVE CHANGED A LOT SINCE 9-11.
THE WORST PROBLEM I HAVE HAD WAS ARRIVING IN TAIWAN WITH A SUITCASE FULL OF SWORDS AS THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY SO HAVE TO BE LEFT AT THE AIRPORT. WHEN YOU LEAVE YOU CAN'T GET THEM TO WHERE YOU CAN PACK THEM IN YOUR CHECK IN LUGGAGE AND THEY WON'T LET YOU CARRY THEM ON EITHER. I OVERCAME THE PROBLEM BY ASKING THE FLIGHT CREW TO CARRY THEM INTO THE COCKPIT WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM TO ME WHEN WE ARRIVED SO I LUCKED OUT THAT TIME. IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT THE POLICYS ARE IN OTHER COUNTRYS AND IT OFTEN VARIES FROM ONE AIRPORT TO ANOTHER AND EVEN FROM ONE CUSTOMS AGENT TO ANOTHER. SO IT COMES DOWN TO THE OLD DIRTY HARRY SAYING "DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?"

GOOD LUCK WHATEVER YOU DECIDE.

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 07:38 AM

I see. thank you. it is ivory handled but it would not be any problem in Turkey. and I have friends in airport customs here too, but not in postal customs.
And a last question. it has an invoice. is it possible and if it is so,easy to insure the bag in flight checkin so that the loss will be covered if it is stolen on the way?

Rick · 21st September 2005, 03:34 PM

Once again I'd advise checking with the airline about this . The sword may have to be packed separately for individual insurance . Generally airlines allow you a set value for a lost piece of luggage .
An individual package may be a different story .

Mick · 21st September 2005, 04:42 PM

Turkey is listed as a party to CITES as of 1996.

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 07:39 PM

CITES can cause problem to bring it into Turkey, but not to take out of USA, right?

Rick · 21st September 2005, 08:13 PM

A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below.

Appendix-I specimens

An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it.

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required.
An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

Appendix-II specimens

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

No import permit is needed unless required by national law.
In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6.

Appendix-III specimens

In the case of trade from a State that included the species in Appendix III, an export permit issued by the Management Authority of that State is required. This may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if it will be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

In the case of export from any other State, a certificate of origin issued by its Management Authority is required.

In the case of re-export, a re-export certificate issued by the State of re-export is required
In its Article VII, the Convention allows or requires Parties to make certain exceptions to the general principles described above, notably in the following cases:

for specimens in transit or being transhipped [see also Resolution Conf. 9.7 (Rev. CoP13)];
for specimens that were acquired before CITES provisions applied to them (known as pre-Convention specimens, see also Resolution Conf. 13.6);
for specimens that are personal or household effects ([see also Resolution Conf. 13.7);
for animals that were ‘bred in captivity’ [see Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.)];
for plants that were ‘artificially propagated’ [see Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13)];
for specimens that are destined for scientific research;
for animals or plants forming part of a travelling collection or exhibition, such as a circus.
There are special rules in these cases and a permit or certificate will generally still be required. Anyone planning to import or export/re-export specimens of a CITES species should contact the national CITES Management Authorities of the countries of import and export/re-export for information on the rules that apply.

When a specimen of a CITES-listed species is transferred between a country that is a Party to CITES and a country that is not, the country that is a Party may accept documentation equivalent to the permits and certificates described above.

Here is the official site :
http://www.cites.org/index.html

Here's another site that deals with your issues (pdf document requires Adobe Acrobat Reader software) :
http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/as.pdf

Good luck .

Mick · 21st September 2005, 08:16 PM

I think that CITES activity is probably initiated by the customs personnel at the country in which you are attempting to bring the item. We don't usually meet with these people when you are leaving the US unless you specifically ask to see them (and in some cases go out looking for them). The entire CITES documents can be read by toggling google and bring them up. It is a pretty complicated document and in effect (the way that I read it) limites you to a one time sale of an item even if the item is allowed within the provisions.

Sorry it looks like Rick and I were writing at the same time.

Rick · 21st September 2005, 08:27 PM

I think the upshot is that your Brother would be best advised to get the Yataghan appraised by a licensed appraiser and have him issue a certificate , or possibly a nearby museum could also issue something official .

Now if you have an 'in' with airport customs agents in your country that is something (circumvention of international laws) we do not discuss here .

Mark · 28th September 2005, 05:09 PM

I missed the latest developments in this thread. Let me explain from personal experience how CITES works (I have an application for an export permit pending at the moment).

Each signatory country has a "managing authority" (in the US it is the Fish and Wildlife Service), that issues export permits for anything covered by CITES, which is pretty much everything but pig bone.

In order to possess, transport, import, export, re-import or re-export, you must have the appropriate permit. The whole thing is mostly geared toward live animals, and animal parts like pelts, tusks, rhino horns, etc., but it does cover things made with them, such as grips and sheaths.

An application for a permit requires a supporting certification that the object(s) in question fall within an exemption to the CITES bans. If you want to take something out and bring it back in, you need an "export/re-import" permit. The relevant exception for the sword collector (in most cases), is that the piece is an antique (more than 100 years old), OR that it has not been in commerce since December 28, 1973. By "in commerce" it is meant that it has not been sold, or for sale, since that date (if the item has changed hands via sale even once, it loses the exemption). The certification, as Rick said, can be made by anyone with expertise, and is usually in the form of a signed declaration that includes the certifier's credentials.

Once the permit is obtained, you are advised to contact the Customs authorities and have them review and sign off on the permit, so that there is no delay in the export. They have the power to inspect the item if they want, and this can save time in the end if they choose to. In the US, the item must be exported from one of six specific ports, but there isn't a problem getting a waiver of that from the Customs office of the port you would otherwise have to use (BTW, the Customs office you need to deal with throughout this process is the one in charge of this port).

So now you have all the right papers to export, and generally this is enough to get something into another country, since the basic requirements are uniform. The US actually has stricter standards because we have the Endangered Species Act and a specific law about trade in African ivory, which have tighter standards than CITES.

Once in the destination country, you need to obtain another permit if you want to get the thing back out. Basically the same process in reverse, which I personally haven't gone through yet, but I am told that the original export permit is usually enough to get the new export permit.

The CITES pages of the USFWS web site (http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExp...rtExport.shtml) have a bunch of information, and all the forms, for the permitting process in the US. It is a pain because it isn't always clear exactly what you need to do, but once you have figured it out, all you really need to do is wait for the wheels of government to turn. Approval can take up to 3 months in the US, and there is a considerable backlog right now, apparently.

erlikhan · 5th November 2005, 10:00 PM

hi. thanks to all for the information. Unfortunately nobody has flied here to bring the yataghan with till now. Very soon my brother will attempt to bring it by plane in a suitcase. I know he had no time and will to try to obtain the necessary documents, so i will need luck. what do you think? Would the check in and customs personnel in Chicago airport let him or not? What is his chance of doing it? Or if he cannot succeed, does anyone know Chicago airport international terminals, if there is a post office around which he can send back the sword to his home adress from?

And, is this CITES regulatory not valid for postal service? Several ivory hilted arms have come to me from the U.S. or I have sent several similar items into U.S from abroad, without any problem,thats why I wonder.

regards

Rick · 5th November 2005, 10:43 PM

Currently the C.I.T.E.S. certification process has a very large backlog and I heard from a large auction house yesterday that the waiting period for processing is now as long as 9 months .

I would expect that baggage checked on flights to Turkey is closely monitored .
If they find it in the US ; you probably will lose it ; most likely for good .

As far as proceeding without one I would say that it will be the 'luck of the draw' .

20th September 2005, 11:00 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	To take antique arm out of USA Hi. I need a fast but also certain information please. My brother will fly here from USA and I request him to bring me my yataghan which he has bought and been keeping for me for some months. If he brings it in his luggage , could he face any problem because of taking 1- an antique item, 2- a long edged weapon out of USA and/or to take into plane even if not in his hand bag? regards

21st September 2005, 08:13 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Here's The Legalese A specimen of a CITES-listed species may be imported into or exported (or re-exported) from a State party to the Convention only if the appropriate document has been obtained and presented for clearance at the port of entry or exit. There is some variation of the requirements from one country to another and it is always necessary to check on the national laws that may be stricter, but the basic conditions that apply for Appendices I and II are described below. Appendix-I specimens An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it. An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is also required. An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained; the trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species; and an import permit has already been issued. A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the provisions of the Convention and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if an import permit has been issued. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. Appendix-II specimens An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required. An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species. A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. No import permit is needed unless required by national law. In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6. Appendix-III specimens In the case of trade from a State that included the species in Appendix III, an export permit issued by the Management Authority of that State is required. This may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and, in the case of a live animal or plant, if it will be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment. In the case of export from any other State, a certificate of origin issued by its Management Authority is required. In the case of re-export, a re-export certificate issued by the State of re-export is required In its Article VII, the Convention allows or requires Parties to make certain exceptions to the general principles described above, notably in the following cases: for specimens in transit or being transhipped [see also Resolution Conf. 9.7 (Rev. CoP13)]; for specimens that were acquired before CITES provisions applied to them (known as pre-Convention specimens, see also Resolution Conf. 13.6); for specimens that are personal or household effects ([see also Resolution Conf. 13.7); for animals that were ‘bred in captivity’ [see Resolution Conf. 10.16 (Rev.)]; for plants that were ‘artificially propagated’ [see Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13)]; for specimens that are destined for scientific research; for animals or plants forming part of a travelling collection or exhibition, such as a circus. There are special rules in these cases and a permit or certificate will generally still be required. Anyone planning to import or export/re-export specimens of a CITES species should contact the national CITES Management Authorities of the countries of import and export/re-export for information on the rules that apply. When a specimen of a CITES-listed species is transferred between a country that is a Party to CITES and a country that is not, the country that is a Party may accept documentation equivalent to the permits and certificates described above. Here is the official site : http://www.cites.org/index.html Here's another site that deals with your issues (pdf document requires Adobe Acrobat Reader software) : http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/as.pdf Good luck .

28th September 2005, 05:09 PM	#14
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Sorry I sort of fell off the discussion I missed the latest developments in this thread. Let me explain from personal experience how CITES works (I have an application for an export permit pending at the moment). Each signatory country has a "managing authority" (in the US it is the Fish and Wildlife Service), that issues export permits for anything covered by CITES, which is pretty much everything but pig bone. In order to possess, transport, import, export, re-import or re-export, you must have the appropriate permit. The whole thing is mostly geared toward live animals, and animal parts like pelts, tusks, rhino horns, etc., but it does cover things made with them, such as grips and sheaths. An application for a permit requires a supporting certification that the object(s) in question fall within an exemption to the CITES bans. If you want to take something out and bring it back in, you need an "export/re-import" permit. The relevant exception for the sword collector (in most cases), is that the piece is an antique (more than 100 years old), OR that it has not been in commerce since December 28, 1973. By "in commerce" it is meant that it has not been sold, or for sale, since that date (if the item has changed hands via sale even once, it loses the exemption). The certification, as Rick said, can be made by anyone with expertise, and is usually in the form of a signed declaration that includes the certifier's credentials. Once the permit is obtained, you are advised to contact the Customs authorities and have them review and sign off on the permit, so that there is no delay in the export. They have the power to inspect the item if they want, and this can save time in the end if they choose to. In the US, the item must be exported from one of six specific ports, but there isn't a problem getting a waiver of that from the Customs office of the port you would otherwise have to use (BTW, the Customs office you need to deal with throughout this process is the one in charge of this port). So now you have all the right papers to export, and generally this is enough to get something into another country, since the basic requirements are uniform. The US actually has stricter standards because we have the Endangered Species Act and a specific law about trade in African ivory, which have tighter standards than CITES. Once in the destination country, you need to obtain another permit if you want to get the thing back out. Basically the same process in reverse, which I personally haven't gone through yet, but I am told that the original export permit is usually enough to get the new export permit. The CITES pages of the USFWS web site (http://www.fws.gov/permits/ImportExp...rtExport.shtml) have a bunch of information, and all the forms, for the permitting process in the US. It is a pain because it isn't always clear exactly what you need to do, but once you have figured it out, all you really need to do is wait for the wheels of government to turn. Approval can take up to 3 months in the US, and there is a considerable backlog right now, apparently.

20th September 2005, 11:15 PM	#2
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I'd recommend shipping it with insurance via ups, fedex etc., if its a piece you don't want to lose, it could get stolen through the airport baggage, besides the hassle of dealing with customs. If he gets to the airport and finds out he can't bring it through he's also faced with the problem of leaving it with someone there before he gets on the plane.

20th September 2005, 11:40 PM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. thank you very much. Sure,were not the replies I'd prefer to hear , as airport custom would be easier for me to handle than postal customs in the case shipment is caught and held by Turkish postal customs (Most probably they would let it as it is not a military item but a native etnoghraphic item) . Once, a friend of me brought 3 old bayonets with him to me by plane, and he said no problem occured in US check in. But as far as I understand from your comments, it is just a matter of luck and I must be ready to take risk and to face the worst too,right?

21st September 2005, 01:56 AM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I expect that you will have more trouble getting it into Turkey than getting it out of the US. If it has an ivory handle, then Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) will apply, as Rick said. However, at least in the US, you are permitted to carry items as part of your personal belongings without having to get a permit. In that sense it may be better for him to carry it. That's about all that I can contribute. What other people have said, I agree with, too.

21st September 2005, 03:38 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I CAN'T ADD MUCH TO WHAT HAS BEEN SAID EXCEPT TO MAKE SURE YOUR ITEM IS VERY WELL PACKED IF EITHER SHIPPING OR TAKING IN A CHECKED BAG. I ALWAYS CARRY MY STUFF IN A HARD SIDED SUITCASE WITH GOOD PACKING INSIDE AND HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS IN THE USA BUT THINGS HAVE CHANGED A LOT SINCE 9-11. THE WORST PROBLEM I HAVE HAD WAS ARRIVING IN TAIWAN WITH A SUITCASE FULL OF SWORDS AS THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE COUNTRY SO HAVE TO BE LEFT AT THE AIRPORT. WHEN YOU LEAVE YOU CAN'T GET THEM TO WHERE YOU CAN PACK THEM IN YOUR CHECK IN LUGGAGE AND THEY WON'T LET YOU CARRY THEM ON EITHER. I OVERCAME THE PROBLEM BY ASKING THE FLIGHT CREW TO CARRY THEM INTO THE COCKPIT WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM TO ME WHEN WE ARRIVED SO I LUCKED OUT THAT TIME. IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT THE POLICYS ARE IN OTHER COUNTRYS AND IT OFTEN VARIES FROM ONE AIRPORT TO ANOTHER AND EVEN FROM ONE CUSTOMS AGENT TO ANOTHER. SO IT COMES DOWN TO THE OLD DIRTY HARRY SAYING "DO YOU FEEL LUCKY?" GOOD LUCK WHATEVER YOU DECIDE.

21st September 2005, 07:38 AM	#7
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. thank you. it is ivory handled but it would not be any problem in Turkey. and I have friends in airport customs here too, but not in postal customs. And a last question. it has an invoice. is it possible and if it is so,easy to insure the bag in flight checkin so that the loss will be covered if it is stolen on the way?

21st September 2005, 03:34 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Once again I'd advise checking with the airline about this . The sword may have to be packed separately for individual insurance . Generally airlines allow you a set value for a lost piece of luggage . An individual package may be a different story .

21st September 2005, 04:42 PM	#9
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Turkey is listed as a party to CITES as of 1996.

21st September 2005, 07:39 PM	#10
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	CITES can cause problem to bring it into Turkey, but not to take out of USA, right?

21st September 2005, 08:16 PM	#12
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	I think that CITES activity is probably initiated by the customs personnel at the country in which you are attempting to bring the item. We don't usually meet with these people when you are leaving the US unless you specifically ask to see them (and in some cases go out looking for them). The entire CITES documents can be read by toggling google and bring them up. It is a pretty complicated document and in effect (the way that I read it) limites you to a one time sale of an item even if the item is allowed within the provisions. Sorry it looks like Rick and I were writing at the same time.

21st September 2005, 08:27 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think the upshot is that your Brother would be best advised to get the Yataghan appraised by a licensed appraiser and have him issue a certificate , or possibly a nearby museum could also issue something official . Now if you have an 'in' with airport customs agents in your country that is something (circumvention of international laws) we do not discuss here .

5th November 2005, 10:00 PM	#15
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	hi. thanks to all for the information. Unfortunately nobody has flied here to bring the yataghan with till now. Very soon my brother will attempt to bring it by plane in a suitcase. I know he had no time and will to try to obtain the necessary documents, so i will need luck. what do you think? Would the check in and customs personnel in Chicago airport let him or not? What is his chance of doing it? Or if he cannot succeed, does anyone know Chicago airport international terminals, if there is a post office around which he can send back the sword to his home adress from? And, is this CITES regulatory not valid for postal service? Several ivory hilted arms have come to me from the U.S. or I have sent several similar items into U.S from abroad, without any problem,thats why I wonder. regards

5th November 2005, 10:43 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Currently the C.I.T.E.S. certification process has a very large backlog and I heard from a large auction house yesterday that the waiting period for processing is now as long as 9 months . I would expect that baggage checked on flights to Turkey is closely monitored . If they find it in the US ; you probably will lose it ; most likely for good . As far as proceeding without one I would say that it will be the 'luck of the draw' .