Beautiful Indian handles

ariel · 28th May 2005, 04:59 PM

All these are also from the Leeds Armoury. The variety of materials, the craftsmanship and the imagination are awesome.

BluErf · 28th May 2005, 05:11 PM

Hey!!! That last picture of the wavy bladed kattar is interesting! If the handle is covered, it looks just like a keris!

Jens Nordlunde · 28th May 2005, 10:57 PM

Hi Ariel,

You are right; they made some striking hilts in India. The first one looks however a bit strange, was it brought together?

The ‘nail’ hilt has been discussed earlier – someone had bought a tulwar with a hilt like this. The other knifes have interesting hilts, but being a katar man myself I like the katar very much. Like BluErf writes, it could very well be a keris blade, pity we cant see the side of the side guards – it might very well be south Indian. Is it?

Thanks for showing.

Jens

Rick · 29th May 2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey!!! That last picture of the wavy bladed kattar is interesting! If the handle is covered, it looks just like a keris!

It could be a Bali keris blade Blu .
The one in this post (Katar#1) is made from the point of an Afghan sabre .
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001461.html

Andrew · 29th May 2005, 07:01 AM

When I read the title to this thread, I immediately thought of clear rock-crystal khandjar handles.

Is that a lapis handle in the last pic?

BluErf · 29th May 2005, 11:34 AM

Thanks for the link Rick.

That's very interesting though, like the concept of the firanggi. The keris blade looked good in its 'reincarnation' as a kattar.

Another thought -- given that the Indians had generally better metal technology than Southeast Asians, why did they modify the keris into a kattar? European blades may be adopted because of good steel/forging techniques, but most kerises doesn't quite strike me as comparable in terms of strength. Or could this be a case of aesthetics/style over functionality?

BluErf · 29th May 2005, 11:45 AM

Oh, and I forgot to *drooool* at Rick's Afghani sabre...

B.I · 29th May 2005, 02:37 PM

not very clear, but almost shows the side bars. from memory, they are relatively plain with a slightly bumped rim, as you can sort of make out from the images. it definately seems southern in design, and i would assume its hails from the south, especially if you veer towards the 'langet' theory, which is plausable.

ariel · 29th May 2005, 04:12 PM

Why do you think the blade on this katar comes from re-used kris?
The idea of wavy blade is not peculiar to Indonesia: Stone has a similar kris ( p.347, Fig 424, #19). What about European Flamberges? Also re-worked Krises?

Rick · 29th May 2005, 04:43 PM

Ariel , if you look closely at the base of the blade you can see the " fullers "
(for want of a better word) that end next to the langet on either side . These are evident on the Bali keris illustrated below . Not the central deep sogokan and pecetan but the wide shallow ones that are along the edge . I would also suggest that if this blade was made expressly for a katar the mounting 'langets' would be more in line with the center line of the blade itself .

Rick · 29th May 2005, 08:19 PM

If you look closely at the close up that I've manipulated a bit you can see where the narrow part of the mounting at the base of the fleur dy lis shows a shadow on either side . These are the mostly covered channels of the sogokan and pecetan with the janur being covered by the mount .

I feel pretty certain that this is probably an old Bali blade , Bali being the longest holdout of Hinduism against the spread of Islam .

I can definitely understand the S.India-Bali connection .

Justin · 30th May 2005, 03:38 PM

Didnt the Balinese import rubys.sapphires,and other gems from India and Sri Lanka?

spiral · 31st May 2005, 11:50 PM

Outstading! love the ivory chinth on the dia chirri kukri, about the best ive seen.

Thanks for sharing!

Spiral

Battara · 1st June 2005, 02:33 AM

Yes they did Justin. Each has a spiritual/religious significance.

29th May 2005, 02:37 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	not very clear, but almost shows the side bars. from memory, they are relatively plain with a slightly bumped rim, as you can sort of make out from the images. it definately seems southern in design, and i would assume its hails from the south, especially if you veer towards the 'langet' theory, which is plausable. Attached Images

29th May 2005, 04:43 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Ariel , if you look closely at the base of the blade you can see the " fullers " (for want of a better word) that end next to the langet on either side . These are evident on the Bali keris illustrated below . Not the central deep sogokan and pecetan but the wide shallow ones that are along the edge . I would also suggest that if this blade was made expressly for a katar the mounting 'langets' would be more in line with the center line of the blade itself . Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 29th May 2005 at 05:03 PM.

29th May 2005, 08:19 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Furthermore .......... If you look closely at the close up that I've manipulated a bit you can see where the narrow part of the mounting at the base of the fleur dy lis shows a shadow on either side . These are the mostly covered channels of the sogokan and pecetan with the janur being covered by the mount . I feel pretty certain that this is probably an old Bali blade , Bali being the longest holdout of Hinduism against the spread of Islam . I can definitely understand the S.India-Bali connection . Attached Images

28th May 2005, 04:59 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Beautiful Indian handles All these are also from the Leeds Armoury. The variety of materials, the craftsmanship and the imagination are awesome. Attached Images

28th May 2005, 05:11 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey!!! That last picture of the wavy bladed kattar is interesting! If the handle is covered, it looks just like a keris!

28th May 2005, 10:57 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ariel, You are right; they made some striking hilts in India. The first one looks however a bit strange, was it brought together? The ‘nail’ hilt has been discussed earlier – someone had bought a tulwar with a hilt like this. The other knifes have interesting hilts, but being a katar man myself I like the katar very much. Like BluErf writes, it could very well be a keris blade, pity we cant see the side of the side guards – it might very well be south Indian. Is it? Thanks for showing. Jens

29th May 2005, 07:01 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	When I read the title to this thread, I immediately thought of clear rock-crystal khandjar handles. Is that a lapis handle in the last pic?

29th May 2005, 11:34 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks for the link Rick. That's very interesting though, like the concept of the firanggi. The keris blade looked good in its 'reincarnation' as a kattar. Another thought -- given that the Indians had generally better metal technology than Southeast Asians, why did they modify the keris into a kattar? European blades may be adopted because of good steel/forging techniques, but most kerises doesn't quite strike me as comparable in terms of strength. Or could this be a case of aesthetics/style over functionality?

29th May 2005, 11:45 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh, and I forgot to drooool at Rick's Afghani sabre...

29th May 2005, 04:12 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Why do you think the blade on this katar comes from re-used kris? The idea of wavy blade is not peculiar to Indonesia: Stone has a similar kris ( p.347, Fig 424, #19). What about European Flamberges? Also re-worked Krises?

30th May 2005, 03:38 PM	#12
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Didnt the Balinese import rubys.sapphires,and other gems from India and Sri Lanka?

31st May 2005, 11:50 PM	#13
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Outstading! love the ivory chinth on the dia chirri kukri, about the best ive seen. Thanks for sharing! Spiral

1st June 2005, 02:33 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Yes they did Justin. Each has a spiritual/religious significance.