Lamination Question

Spunjer · 17th March 2005, 07:16 PM

i posted this pira a couple weeks ago and i finally got to etched it this past weekend. well, i found out that it is indeed laminated and i believe it is what you folks refer to as sandwich type lamination (due to the edge erosion)? what i don't get are the horizontal lines that's running parallel to the blade. what are those and could someone tell what type of metal was used for the blade? is this an older or newer blade? thanks in advance...

Rick · 17th March 2005, 07:23 PM

Spunger , I would suggest that the lines you see are tool marks left from smoothing and shaping the blade .

/I love that sword , good score !

Spunjer · 18th March 2005, 05:46 AM

thanks rick

shows my naivete when it comes to metallurgy

i thought i've done screwed it up. dont ask...

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 01:16 PM

Rick's right; those are grind marks original to the production of the item; when the surface was patinaed they were not as readily visible, and now that it is clean they become more noticeable.

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 01:23 PM

BTW, I can't tell in the photo, but that may be a welded edge or it may be a hardening line. If it is a sandwich/"san mai" type constuction, the edge steel (an antiquitous term is the "bit") will be visible running down the center of the spine as well. On the other hand, it could be an inlaid (dogged-in, pinch-welded, qiangong) edge that was welded into a slit in the blade. It seems like a fairly light etch (?) and while I could probably tell you if I examined the sword, I just can't be sure from the photo. Moro swords I've seen the temper lines on tend to be hardened in a wider zone than that line, and to be fairly straight lines formed by the blade being only quenched to that depth. If this is a temper line it would have pretty much had to be made with the clay method, but very similar temper lines are seen on Visayan swords, and things have a way of getting around the neighborhood. Is this a very old sword? It doesn't look like most of the old ones I've seen, and I don't see any folding, which is what I was expecting before your photos came up, but that's something that, if fairly homogenous, often only becomes clear on a deeper etch.

Mark · 18th March 2005, 01:28 PM

It is hard to tell for sure. What makes it look sandwiched to me are the lines of lighter color running to the edge just to the right of center. The first from the left looks like it might be a crack, but the second and third look like they are threads of the outer layer continuing to the edge, which would happen if there was a crease or other depression in the middle layer at that point that was filled with metal from the outer layer during forging.

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 01:35 PM

I'm glad you addressed those lines; I wondered about them, but couldn't decide if they were cracks, layers like you said, places where the etch got resisted by something on the surface of the blade, or flaws (although gaps and waves can be deliberate) in a temper line. As you can see, I can fit what I see of them into any theory with equal realism, so while I found them interesting, I had nothing useful to say about them.....

Ann Feuerbach · 18th March 2005, 02:54 PM

I can say with certaintly they are scratches from surface removal (grinding/polishing). They have nothing to do with lamination. Nice piece.

Ann

Spunjer · 18th March 2005, 03:10 PM

thank you for everyone's responses. i guess i have to etch it further to get a better assessment. btw, those perpindicular lines on the edge are cracks. i hope that helps for now...

zelbone · 18th March 2005, 04:55 PM

Yo Spunger!

Can we get a close-up of the hilt? I've never seen a pira with a hilt like that before, but I have on a bangkung. Nice sword! Did you get this in the Philippines?

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 11:08 PM

Ann, we've switched topic of discussion from the grind lines to the short, perpendicular lines that run across the edge region; we'll do it

Rick · 18th March 2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

thank you for everyone's responses. i guess i have to etch it further to get a better assessment. btw, those perpindicular lines on the edge are cracks. i hope that helps for now...

Maybe Rich would know ; I have heard these cracks referred to as 'tired steel' by a nihonto collector .

tom hyle · 18th March 2005, 11:35 PM

Really? Tired steel in my experience more commonly refers to a Japanese blade that has been repolished beyond the top skin steel, allowing lower regions that weren't meant to show to do so.

Rick · 19th March 2005, 12:12 AM

Strictly hearsay for me Tom , I defer to you .

More edge cracking :

Spunjer · 19th March 2005, 05:28 AM

zel,
here's a close up of the hilt. b'laan, i believe. btw, yes, this was from my last trip...

tom hyle · 19th March 2005, 12:11 PM

So this is a non-Moro hilt, yes? An animist hilt, yes?

Spunjer · 19th March 2005, 12:44 PM

yes. lumad tribe...

Ann Feuerbach · 19th March 2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Ann, we've switched topic of discussion from the grind lines to the short, perpendicular lines that run across the edge region; we'll do it

Ah, yes, I have been caught nodding off

.

Spunjer · 22nd March 2005, 11:24 AM

i tried to etch the blade this past weekend; not much, hopefully this'll give you folks more clue...

17th March 2005, 07:16 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Lamination Question i posted this pira a couple weeks ago and i finally got to etched it this past weekend. well, i found out that it is indeed laminated and i believe it is what you folks refer to as sandwich type lamination (due to the edge erosion)? what i don't get are the horizontal lines that's running parallel to the blade. what are those and could someone tell what type of metal was used for the blade? is this an older or newer blade? thanks in advance... Attached Images

17th March 2005, 07:23 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Spunger , I would suggest that the lines you see are tool marks left from smoothing and shaping the blade . /I love that sword , good score ! Last edited by Rick; 17th March 2005 at 09:28 PM.

19th March 2005, 12:12 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Strictly hearsay for me Tom , I defer to you . More edge cracking : Attached Images

19th March 2005, 05:28 AM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	zel, here's a close up of the hilt. b'laan, i believe. btw, yes, this was from my last trip... Attached Images

22nd March 2005, 11:24 AM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i tried to etch the blade this past weekend; not much, hopefully this'll give you folks more clue... Attached Images

18th March 2005, 05:46 AM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks rick shows my naivete when it comes to metallurgy i thought i've done screwed it up. dont ask...

18th March 2005, 01:16 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick's right; those are grind marks original to the production of the item; when the surface was patinaed they were not as readily visible, and now that it is clean they become more noticeable.

18th March 2005, 01:23 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, I can't tell in the photo, but that may be a welded edge or it may be a hardening line. If it is a sandwich/"san mai" type constuction, the edge steel (an antiquitous term is the "bit") will be visible running down the center of the spine as well. On the other hand, it could be an inlaid (dogged-in, pinch-welded, qiangong) edge that was welded into a slit in the blade. It seems like a fairly light etch (?) and while I could probably tell you if I examined the sword, I just can't be sure from the photo. Moro swords I've seen the temper lines on tend to be hardened in a wider zone than that line, and to be fairly straight lines formed by the blade being only quenched to that depth. If this is a temper line it would have pretty much had to be made with the clay method, but very similar temper lines are seen on Visayan swords, and things have a way of getting around the neighborhood. Is this a very old sword? It doesn't look like most of the old ones I've seen, and I don't see any folding, which is what I was expecting before your photos came up, but that's something that, if fairly homogenous, often only becomes clear on a deeper etch.

18th March 2005, 01:28 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	It is hard to tell for sure. What makes it look sandwiched to me are the lines of lighter color running to the edge just to the right of center. The first from the left looks like it might be a crack, but the second and third look like they are threads of the outer layer continuing to the edge, which would happen if there was a crease or other depression in the middle layer at that point that was filled with metal from the outer layer during forging.

18th March 2005, 01:35 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm glad you addressed those lines; I wondered about them, but couldn't decide if they were cracks, layers like you said, places where the etch got resisted by something on the surface of the blade, or flaws (although gaps and waves can be deliberate) in a temper line. As you can see, I can fit what I see of them into any theory with equal realism, so while I found them interesting, I had nothing useful to say about them.....

18th March 2005, 02:54 PM	#8
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	I can say with certaintly they are scratches from surface removal (grinding/polishing). They have nothing to do with lamination. Nice piece. Ann

18th March 2005, 03:10 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thank you for everyone's responses. i guess i have to etch it further to get a better assessment. btw, those perpindicular lines on the edge are cracks. i hope that helps for now...

18th March 2005, 04:55 PM	#10
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Yo Spunger! Can we get a close-up of the hilt? I've never seen a pira with a hilt like that before, but I have on a bangkung. Nice sword! Did you get this in the Philippines?

18th March 2005, 11:08 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ann, we've switched topic of discussion from the grind lines to the short, perpendicular lines that run across the edge region; we'll do it

18th March 2005, 11:35 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Really? Tired steel in my experience more commonly refers to a Japanese blade that has been repolished beyond the top skin steel, allowing lower regions that weren't meant to show to do so.

19th March 2005, 12:11 PM	#16
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	So this is a non-Moro hilt, yes? An animist hilt, yes?

19th March 2005, 12:44 PM	#17
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yes. lumad tribe...