Very old Moro kris

[CCUAL]

Engraved and may be twistcore kris blade. Chevron shadow on pics #2. Photos from seller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/152443785290...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[Battara]

Very nice, congratulations!

Looks like an old late 1700s Sulu kris. I wish I could read the inscription - it looks Spanish like.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Very nice, congratulations!

Looks like an old late 1700s Sulu kris. I wish I could read the inscription - it looks Spanish like.

You think that is a language José. Looks like talismanic markings to me.
Unique! Nice find.

[Sajen]

Hello CCUAL,

I was the third "high" bidder and have had the hope that it was overseen by others! Agree with David, I think as well that this are talismanic markings on the blade and with you that it maybe has twistcore in the middle. Are you going to restore the handle?

Jose, do you think that it is indeed old like this? My guess would have been 18th century.

Anyway, great catch! I am green with envy!

Regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

Very nice! Congratulations!

[Spunjer]

Wow! great catch!!
looks like a bunch of greater than and less than signs on the blade, although closest to the wide part and the tip, it looks like floral designs. yeah, might be worth checking if it's twistcore or not

[mariusgmioc]

My bet is 18th century.

The markings are talismanic and is not a script.

In my oppinion is an attempt to immitate latin script (albeit you can read it like "VIVA" if you insist) - somehow similar to what you can see on Central European blades trying to immitate Arabic script.

[ariel]

If you turn it upside down, doesn't the first word look like Viva?
Copied by an illiterate person, which is frequent.

Can you provide an upside down pic of the entire inscription?

[Battara]

FYI - 18th century is in fact the 1700's. To rephrase, it looks late 18th c to me.

Talismanic? Maybe, though words are often talismanic. I'm thinking that the symbols/letters were added later.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Battara

FYI - 18th century is in fact the 1700's. To rephrase, it looks late 18th c to me.

Sorry, thought to have read 17th century, my mistake!

[CCUAL]

Got a hold of the sword this morning. Heavy kris for its size. Over 3/4" thick. I cleaned the active rust with 1000grit wet dry sand paper, polished, and quick acid etched.

[ariel]

Did he intend to write Viva Espana?

[CCUAL]

reverse side of the blade.

[CCUAL]

the handle was greatly damaged but i will keep it as-is.

[mariusgmioc]

Hmmm... now, after seing the "pamor" I wonder if it isn't later 19th century?!

The pattern is rather elaborate for a 18th century... I guess...

[Sajen]

I've said already that I am green with envy??

I personally would look to get the hilt restored.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hmmm... now, after seing the "pamor" I wonder if it isn't later 19th century?!

The pattern is rather elaborate for a 18th century... I guess...

Actually earlier 18th century examples often have double twist core centers. The later one goes in time, the less often we see the double twist core in kris blades.

So as I said earlier, I would place this in the 18th century. The double twist core supports my thesis.

Again Christian, congratulations. This might be a captured piece, or perhaps a Moro who switched sides. If it could only talk..........

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hmmm... now, after seing the "pamor" I wonder if it isn't later 19th century?!

The pattern is rather elaborate for a 18th century... I guess...

I would agree with José here. Many of what seem to be 18th C Moro kris seem to have twisted cores like this. This one os a beauty though.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Did he intend to write Viva Espana?

Seems like a rather unlikely phrase for a Moro to place on his kris.

[CCUAL]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I've said already that I am green with envy??

I personally would look to get the hilt restored.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef, I am re-thinking what you have said, restoring the hilt, issue is that one side has deteriorated over time and part of the wood is now gone, you can see it from the photo, the other side has flared 3-4mm and it created four spiral cracks, I am afraid that if I heated blade and start rocking it back and fort it will fall apart leaving me just the pommel in the end. Any recommendation on how this resto should be done? Thanks

[Ian]

The original auction pictures seem to show charring of the wooden hilt, indicating that it had been in a fire. No self respecting Moro would have left such a valuable (and historic?) sword in this condition, so it seems this could have been a battlefield pick-up, perhaps by a US serviceman during one of the conflicts with Moro insurgents in the early 1900s. If that is the case, I would not restore the hilt as it may be an important part of the sword's history.

Even though this sword is plainly dressed, definitely a "fighter," it is a fine example of a very good quality older kris blade perhaps owned by a prominent person. Do you have any provenance from the seller?

Ian.

[CCUAL]

Ian, no provenance provided by the seller besides his note on the auction that it once belonged to a world traveler that collected many things while overseas.

You are right, i'll keep 'em as-is. Thanks

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

The original auction pictures seem to show charring of the wooden hilt, indicating that it had been in a fire. No self respecting Moro would have left such a valuable (and historic?) sword in this condition, so it seems this could have been a battlefield pick-up, perhaps by a US serviceman during one of the conflicts with Moro insurgents in the early 1900s. If that is the case, I would not restore the hilt as it may be an important part of the sword's history.

You could simply wrap the hilt with some material that would give it a better over all appearance, yet not make any undoable repair if you ever wanted to revert it to its original form.

[CCUAL]

I had time to burn today, instead of staring at my tv, i decided to re-etched this two krises. Both were from ebay.

[Pinoy Blade Hunter]

really beautiful blades! congratulations!

[Rick]

What is the implication of the incredible similarity of the center pattern in most all of these 'Archaic' swords?

It can't be coincidence.

[Lee]

Rick, I think it is aesthetics and the nature of forged iron. In contrast to the example I recently presented, this beauty shows mirrored rods forming the core with very little loss of the material (by that, I mean the periphery of the rod is responsible for this pattern.) The wide mirrored rods were also used in Migration Period and Viking Age Europe and were likely flattened before installation to achieve the width of the bands, the pattern being retained, just compressed. A great piece of smithing!

The other freshly etched kris with narrower pattern-welded bands and fullers shows a pattern from deeper in the rods, likely exposed by stock removal to form the fullers.

[Spunjer]

wow! you've been killing it with twistcores lately, brother! nice catch on both of these!

[CCUAL]

Thanks guy for the comments and compliments.

Ron, all this ebay buys are just plain luck! I just cross finger and hope for the best... so far it works! Thanks btw brother!

[mross]

Nicely done