Scottish Skean Dhu

corrado26 · 4th October 2016, 07:23 PM

This morning the postman brought me a small package the content of which was very welcome: A Scottish Scean Dhu with a very sharp blade. Grip is ebony and the crown with a orange jewel (?) on top and the other mountings are made of silver. Total length is 205mm, blade is 97mm. Comments are invited.
corrado26

Shakethetrees · 4th October 2016, 08:00 PM

Beautiful piece!
The orange jewel is called a cairngorm. I'm not sure of the origin of the word, probably old Scottish.

I believe it is topaz or sometime smoky quartz if it's a more brownish color.

kronckew · 4th October 2016, 08:41 PM

nice old sgian duhb (black knife), the cairngorm stone comes from : wait for it....

the cairngorm mountains area of scotland.

some traditional stones: cairngorm ones vary from a clear-ish yellow-brown to smokey quartz. there are other variants, gemstones, glass, crystals, plastic...

Battara · 5th October 2016, 12:55 AM

Nice late 19th - early 20th century piece. It is in the same style as the Gordon Highlanders' Regiment.

The stone may also be glass - very common in these.

Sajen · 5th October 2016, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The stone may also be glass - very common in these.

I think that it is like Krockew write a cairngorm, some sort of smoky quartz found in the Cairngorm Mountains of Scotland, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoky_quartz

But of course it could be very well glass, to be sure I would show it to a jeweler.

corrado26 · 5th October 2016, 08:26 AM

Thanks for the many comments. To make sure I'll show the skean dhu to a jeweller. Very interesting is that this piece might be from a member of the Gordon Highlanders.
corrado26

Royston · 6th October 2016, 08:31 PM

Is there a hallmark hidden anywhere ?
Regards
Roy

corrado26 · 7th October 2016, 01:20 PM

No, there are no hallmarks but as the jeweller said it is good silver and the stone on top is a topas
corrado26

Battara · 12th October 2016, 05:02 AM

Glad you got this to a jeweler.

Topaz - a little more expensive but not unheard of........

rickystl · 15th October 2016, 04:29 PM

Hi Corado.

That's a beauty. And very well detailed. I've read that these smaller ones were often referred to as Sock Knives. As in foot sock. Congrats.

Rick

kronckew · 15th October 2016, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Corado.

That's a beauty. And very well detailed. I've read that these smaller ones were often referred to as Sock Knives. As in foot sock. Congrats.

Rick

yup as they are worn tucke into the top of the sock folded over, knife on outside on your strong/dominant hand side. longer ones are dirks and worn suspened from the belt.

like this:

rickystl · 15th October 2016, 10:40 PM

Yes. That's it. Good illistration.

Pukka Bundook · 16th October 2016, 06:30 AM

Good illustration, but only the top half of the hilt should show (at the most)
Wearing it as illustrated above would likely get it lost when walking..

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2016, 08:20 PM

Hi,
Probably it should not show at all as it is a Black Knife (hidden knife) and would only be on show in the stocking top when in company as a show of good faith i.e. you can see my knife so I'm not about to do anything with it I shouldn't while in your company!
This is one interpretation of the origins of the Sgian Dhu when a small utility knife was the only 'weapon' allowed during the English banning of wearing and bearing arms in some parts of Scotland and how it came to be worn in the stocking top.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 16th October 2016, 08:39 PM

Learning

.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2016, 08:48 PM

Actually I believe that traditionally, the skean dubh would have been entirely concealed in the stocking. As told in the familiar lore of Scotland, or as I was told, these hidden knives came about with the Scottish practice of always being well armed even in the most everyday situations. It was customary however to put down your arms in visits or meeting situations as a sign of truce or peaceful interaction.

That was until the fateful events at Glencoe, when clansmen in a weeklong visit and trustingly disarmed, were cruelly massacred by their hosts in a well planned and deceitful act.

After this, while giving up the bulk of his arms, the clansman kept a sort of back up weapon in his stocking, the small but deadly knife, skean dubh,
In Gaelic, the term skean =knife and dubh, has often been taken to mean black.
However in its more common simile, it actually means 'dark' or more directly, hidden. Therefore it is a 'hidden' knife.
By the same token, in Gaelic, the famed "Black Watch" regiment actually began as a covert 'undercover' unit used by the British to patrol Highland regions and maintain control. Therefore the eventual sobriquet for the regiment when formalized was not for black or somber toned apparel but the 'hidden' purpose of its formation.

In my own surname, in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, means, son of the 'dark' foreigner, therefore unclear origins

or so family lore goes .

Norman.....we crossed posts!!!!

I remain curious on the 'jimping' or notching along the blade at the back, often I think on dirks as well. I think this was for the utility purposes in many cases....scaling fish?

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2016, 09:18 PM

Hi Jim,
Hope you are well these days and still travelling. On the subject of the Black Watch, my mother always called the distinctive Black Watch tartan "A Government Tartan" and always with sarcasm and disdain in her voice. I'm not sure exactly why as on her side of the family we were/are Lowland Scots/Ulster Irish and therefore probably on the side of the Govt., but possibly not always with the expected degree of commitment. Way back the regiment, I believe, was used to implement Govt policy and naturally this would have given rise to a certain dislike and I presume this dislike was passed down the generations.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2016, 11:19 PM

Just got back from Arizona and 4 months on the road as we traded in the old bookmobile for a new one (still not enough room for all these books!).
Will sit tight through winter then off again.
Thank you for the insight on this stuff, always great to share this intriguing history.
My great grandparents were Highlanders as you know, and things I read from them spoke disdainfully as well on 'the govt' .
From all I have found most of the tartans were pretty contrived during the 1850s and the Sobieski's and Highland fad.
Despite the 'shady' beginnings , the 42nd established stellar record and traditions.......proud Scots.

Norman McCormick · 17th October 2016, 12:31 AM

Hi Jim,
Yes the tartan itself seemed to promote a prickly response and I suspect it was also the fact that it wasn't a 'true clan tartan' but contrived for a Govt force. Her own tartan, MacLaine of Lochbuie, is one of the more ancient and traditional tartans of which she was rightly proud. Her ire of course did not extend to the brave lads of the 42nd who were/are a formidable regiment with many of the recruits historically coming from our extended local area.
Regards,
Norman.

Battara · 17th October 2016, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I remain curious on the 'jimping' or notching along the blade at the back, often I think on dirks as well. I think this was for the utility purposes in many cases....scaling fish?

I thought this notching was for thumb placement, even on dirks starting from the early 19th century. Makes a better grip for the thumb so it won't slip as easily.

Pukka Bundook · 17th October 2016, 05:02 AM

Jim,

I think in the days of proscription, the sgian dubh was still carried inside the waistcoat as a hidden weapon. (Black= hidden as you suggest) After all, anything inside the hose is going to show!
I gather it was later, in the Highland revival that it began to be worn in the hose top, and showing.

Norman McCormick · 17th October 2016, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jim,

I gather it was later, in the Highland revival that it began to be worn in the hose top, and showing.

Hi,
These days almost all "Scottishness" re dress etc can be traced back to Victorian embellishments and ideas made popular by Victoria and Albert and their fascination with Scotland. Even earlier Sir Walter Scott in his novels romanticised the idea of Scotland and all things Scottish but then again they were novels and a lot of them are still a good read today.
Regards,
Norman.

corrado26 · 17th October 2016, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

a lot of them are still a good read today.

This I must really agree with - I love these novels and have red them more than once
corrado26

Battara · 17th October 2016, 06:10 PM

Yeah anything truly Scottish before Victorian influence is from the
Battle of Culloden and back.

However, when it comes to sgian dubhs, I have found that the later mid-19th century showed more Celtic knotwork (which I dearly love!

). Yet I favor dirks from the 1780s back.

Strange, I know................

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2016, 09:40 PM

It is good to see that true romantics abound here!!!
ere's to ye lads!!!

blue lander · 26th October 2016, 08:31 PM

Is there a significance to the hilt being black? I ask because I've been reading through the Irish "National Folklore Collection", and several stories involve using a "black handled knife" to break a curse or other "magic". It makes me wonder if there's some cultural significance to black handled knives in Celtic cultures.

Here are some examples of stories featuring a black handled knife:

http://www.duchas.ie/en/src?q=black+handled+knife

Norman McCormick · 26th October 2016, 08:52 PM

Hi,
Traditionally, and I use the term in its broadest sense, Sgian Dhu and sometimes Dirk hilts are made with bog oak which as the name suggests is oak that has been in a bog for a very long time, hard and durable takes carving well and dark brown or black. As in all cultures that relied heavily on nature and its vagaries Celtic, Nordic etc., most things had a 'supernatural' significance as well as a day to day significance so I suspect a well known wood such as oak that came from a bog, which in itself had a supernatural aspect e.g. possible ritual human sacrifice, hence the Scandinavian and Irish bog bodies, could well have a special ritualistic significance but I don't think there is a definitive answer to your question there just isn't the archeological evidence as far as I'm aware. I've most definitely been wrong before so who knows.
Regards,
Norman.

blue lander · 26th October 2016, 10:59 PM

That makes sense, thank you. If I find a more specific explanation in these Irish folktales I'll be sure to post it. So far two stories have used them for breaking curses, two for scaring off fairies, and a handful say they need to be used when operating on sick livestock.

mariusgmioc · 29th October 2016, 11:26 PM

Hello,

The reason why the handle is black is because it was supposed to be a concealed knife, hence the name "knife black/concealed."

But you can find a quite complete and well written explanation on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian-dubh

blue lander · 1st November 2016, 10:27 PM

This site has some information about black handled knives in Cretan folklore

http://bryanashen.blogspot.com/2012/...-evil.html?m=1

It seems very poorly researched though, to put it gently.

4th October 2016, 07:23 PM	#1
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Scottish Skean Dhu This morning the postman brought me a small package the content of which was very welcome: A Scottish Scean Dhu with a very sharp blade. Grip is ebony and the crown with a orange jewel (?) on top and the other mountings are made of silver. Total length is 205mm, blade is 97mm. Comments are invited. corrado26 Attached Images

4th October 2016, 08:41 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	nice old sgian duhb (black knife), the cairngorm stone comes from : wait for it.... the cairngorm mountains area of scotland. some traditional stones: cairngorm ones vary from a clear-ish yellow-brown to smokey quartz. there are other variants, gemstones, glass, crystals, plastic... Attached Images

26th October 2016, 08:31 PM	#26
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Is there a significance to the hilt being black? I ask because I've been reading through the Irish "National Folklore Collection", and several stories involve using a "black handled knife" to break a curse or other "magic". It makes me wonder if there's some cultural significance to black handled knives in Celtic cultures. Here are some examples of stories featuring a black handled knife: http://www.duchas.ie/en/src?q=black+handled+knife Last edited by blue lander; 26th October 2016 at 08:41 PM.

4th October 2016, 08:00 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Beautiful piece! The orange jewel is called a cairngorm. I'm not sure of the origin of the word, probably old Scottish. I believe it is topaz or sometime smoky quartz if it's a more brownish color.

5th October 2016, 12:55 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Nice late 19th - early 20th century piece. It is in the same style as the Gordon Highlanders' Regiment. The stone may also be glass - very common in these.

5th October 2016, 08:26 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Thanks for the many comments. To make sure I'll show the skean dhu to a jeweller. Very interesting is that this piece might be from a member of the Gordon Highlanders. corrado26

6th October 2016, 08:31 PM	#7
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Is there a hallmark hidden anywhere ? Regards Roy

7th October 2016, 01:20 PM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	No, there are no hallmarks but as the jeweller said it is good silver and the stone on top is a topas corrado26

12th October 2016, 05:02 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Glad you got this to a jeweler. Topaz - a little more expensive but not unheard of........

15th October 2016, 04:29 PM	#10
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Corado. That's a beauty. And very well detailed. I've read that these smaller ones were often referred to as Sock Knives. As in foot sock. Congrats. Rick

15th October 2016, 10:40 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Yes. That's it. Good illistration.

16th October 2016, 06:30 AM	#13
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good illustration, but only the top half of the hilt should show (at the most) Wearing it as illustrated above would likely get it lost when walking..

16th October 2016, 08:20 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, Probably it should not show at all as it is a Black Knife (hidden knife) and would only be on show in the stocking top when in company as a show of good faith i.e. you can see my knife so I'm not about to do anything with it I shouldn't while in your company! This is one interpretation of the origins of the Sgian Dhu when a small utility knife was the only 'weapon' allowed during the English banning of wearing and bearing arms in some parts of Scotland and how it came to be worn in the stocking top. Regards, Norman.

16th October 2016, 08:39 PM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Learning .

16th October 2016, 08:48 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Actually I believe that traditionally, the skean dubh would have been entirely concealed in the stocking. As told in the familiar lore of Scotland, or as I was told, these hidden knives came about with the Scottish practice of always being well armed even in the most everyday situations. It was customary however to put down your arms in visits or meeting situations as a sign of truce or peaceful interaction. That was until the fateful events at Glencoe, when clansmen in a weeklong visit and trustingly disarmed, were cruelly massacred by their hosts in a well planned and deceitful act. After this, while giving up the bulk of his arms, the clansman kept a sort of back up weapon in his stocking, the small but deadly knife, skean dubh, In Gaelic, the term skean =knife and dubh, has often been taken to mean black. However in its more common simile, it actually means 'dark' or more directly, hidden. Therefore it is a 'hidden' knife. By the same token, in Gaelic, the famed "Black Watch" regiment actually began as a covert 'undercover' unit used by the British to patrol Highland regions and maintain control. Therefore the eventual sobriquet for the regiment when formalized was not for black or somber toned apparel but the 'hidden' purpose of its formation. In my own surname, in Gaelic, MacDhubghaill, means, son of the 'dark' foreigner, therefore unclear origins or so family lore goes . Norman.....we crossed posts!!!! I remain curious on the 'jimping' or notching along the blade at the back, often I think on dirks as well. I think this was for the utility purposes in many cases....scaling fish?

16th October 2016, 09:18 PM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Jim, Hope you are well these days and still travelling. On the subject of the Black Watch, my mother always called the distinctive Black Watch tartan "A Government Tartan" and always with sarcasm and disdain in her voice. I'm not sure exactly why as on her side of the family we were/are Lowland Scots/Ulster Irish and therefore probably on the side of the Govt., but possibly not always with the expected degree of commitment. Way back the regiment, I believe, was used to implement Govt policy and naturally this would have given rise to a certain dislike and I presume this dislike was passed down the generations. My Regards, Norman.

16th October 2016, 11:19 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Just got back from Arizona and 4 months on the road as we traded in the old bookmobile for a new one (still not enough room for all these books!). Will sit tight through winter then off again. Thank you for the insight on this stuff, always great to share this intriguing history. My great grandparents were Highlanders as you know, and things I read from them spoke disdainfully as well on 'the govt' . From all I have found most of the tartans were pretty contrived during the 1850s and the Sobieski's and Highland fad. Despite the 'shady' beginnings , the 42nd established stellar record and traditions.......proud Scots.

17th October 2016, 12:31 AM	#19
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Jim, Yes the tartan itself seemed to promote a prickly response and I suspect it was also the fact that it wasn't a 'true clan tartan' but contrived for a Govt force. Her own tartan, MacLaine of Lochbuie, is one of the more ancient and traditional tartans of which she was rightly proud. Her ire of course did not extend to the brave lads of the 42nd who were/are a formidable regiment with many of the recruits historically coming from our extended local area. Regards, Norman.

17th October 2016, 05:02 AM	#21
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, I think in the days of proscription, the sgian dubh was still carried inside the waistcoat as a hidden weapon. (Black= hidden as you suggest) After all, anything inside the hose is going to show! I gather it was later, in the Highland revival that it began to be worn in the hose top, and showing.

17th October 2016, 06:10 PM	#24
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Yeah anything truly Scottish before Victorian influence is from the Battle of Culloden and back. However, when it comes to sgian dubhs, I have found that the later mid-19th century showed more Celtic knotwork (which I dearly love! ). Yet I favor dirks from the 1780s back. Strange, I know................

17th October 2016, 09:40 PM	#25
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	It is good to see that true romantics abound here!!! ere's to ye lads!!!

26th October 2016, 08:52 PM	#27
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, Traditionally, and I use the term in its broadest sense, Sgian Dhu and sometimes Dirk hilts are made with bog oak which as the name suggests is oak that has been in a bog for a very long time, hard and durable takes carving well and dark brown or black. As in all cultures that relied heavily on nature and its vagaries Celtic, Nordic etc., most things had a 'supernatural' significance as well as a day to day significance so I suspect a well known wood such as oak that came from a bog, which in itself had a supernatural aspect e.g. possible ritual human sacrifice, hence the Scandinavian and Irish bog bodies, could well have a special ritualistic significance but I don't think there is a definitive answer to your question there just isn't the archeological evidence as far as I'm aware. I've most definitely been wrong before so who knows. Regards, Norman.

26th October 2016, 10:59 PM	#28
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	That makes sense, thank you. If I find a more specific explanation in these Irish folktales I'll be sure to post it. So far two stories have used them for breaking curses, two for scaring off fairies, and a handful say they need to be used when operating on sick livestock.

29th October 2016, 11:26 PM	#29
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, The reason why the handle is black is because it was supposed to be a concealed knife, hence the name "knife black/concealed." But you can find a quite complete and well written explanation on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian-dubh

1st November 2016, 10:27 PM	#30
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	This site has some information about black handled knives in Cretan folklore http://bryanashen.blogspot.com/2012/...-evil.html?m=1 It seems very poorly researched though, to put it gently.