Athabascan knife

LJ · 4th August 2014, 01:48 PM

The recent post on a North American knife reminded me I was going to post this one with a query. It looks to me like an Athabascan knife (the sheath was probably made in England, mid 20th Century). The usual story seems to be that Athabascan knives were originally made in copper, and when iron became available the old shape was copied in the new material. But iron is much harder to work than copper, and I find it hard to believe that Athabascan smiths were making iron knives in the same shape all over the northern woodlands area. So, were they made in one place in Canada. Or mass produced in Birmingham or Sheffield [for instance] and shipped in by the Hudson Bay Company ? In which case, it is equally hard to believe somebody was willing to portage heavy boxes of knives over a vast area. So, does anybody have any more information on these knives??

p.s. the other side of the blade of this one is flat.

Sajen · 4th August 2014, 03:40 PM

Hello LJ,

search with the keyword "tlingit" and you will find a few threads with this sort of daggers. I can't be from great help because I only know what I have read at this place and that I like this daggers!

Yours (?) look very nice!

Regards,
Detlef

VANDOO · 4th August 2014, 04:34 PM

IN THE EARLY DAYS SUCH A KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO A HIGH CHIEF ADDING TO THE PRESTIGE AND WEALTH OF THE TRIBE. THIS WOULD GAIN FAVOR FOR THE ONE PRESENTING SUCH A GREAT GIFT AND NO DOUBT SPECIAL TRADE AND TRAPPING PRIVILEGES WOULD BE GIVEN IN RETURN OR PERHAPS A WIFE.
SUCH KNIVES WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN COMMON TRADE GOODS CARRIED IN LARGE NUMBERS OR TRADED WILLY-NELLY TO JUST ANYONE.
DURING LATER YEARS WHEN SETTLEMENTS WITH A GOOD BLACKSMITH WERE PRESENT PERHAPS MORE OF THESE WERE MADE AND MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN COMMISSIONED BY THE TRIBES FOR GIFTS IN THEIR CEREMONIES.
TAKE THIS AS MOSTLY CONJECTURE AS i JUST DRAW IT FROM THINGS I READ IN THE PAST AND CAN NOT GIVE SPECIFIC REFERENCE SOURCES.

archer · 5th August 2014, 12:15 AM

Hi, try this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13961

In it you can see the reinforced ridge started in copper appear for no reason in steel. the double bladed shakats also seem to lean toward fluted on both sides ?? Haida?? Fluted on one side only and I've never found a connection
to the single grooved daggers. The voluted curled double pommel seems to
appear throughout history in various locations around the world. There should be other threads regarding these knives here somewhere. Steve

LJ · 5th August 2014, 08:37 PM

Very many thanks for the replies, and the leads to very interesting information. It has sorted out a few issues in my mind.

I'm now wondering whether my first prejudice (that the copper ones were 'originals', later copied in iron) was right; were daggers in fact made in both metals at the same period, but maybe used for different purposes?

The only thing I might add is this picture I found today in Jonathan King's book "First Peoples First Contacts". Engraved after a sketch by Frederick Whymper done in 1867, it shows Koyukon or Tanana River men hunting from canoes using these daggers

4th August 2014, 01:48 PM	#1
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Athabascan knife The recent post on a North American knife reminded me I was going to post this one with a query. It looks to me like an Athabascan knife (the sheath was probably made in England, mid 20th Century). The usual story seems to be that Athabascan knives were originally made in copper, and when iron became available the old shape was copied in the new material. But iron is much harder to work than copper, and I find it hard to believe that Athabascan smiths were making iron knives in the same shape all over the northern woodlands area. So, were they made in one place in Canada. Or mass produced in Birmingham or Sheffield [for instance] and shipped in by the Hudson Bay Company ? In which case, it is equally hard to believe somebody was willing to portage heavy boxes of knives over a vast area. So, does anybody have any more information on these knives?? p.s. the other side of the blade of this one is flat. Attached Images

5th August 2014, 12:15 AM	#4
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Three styles of daggers Hi, try this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13961 In it you can see the reinforced ridge started in copper appear for no reason in steel. the double bladed shakats also seem to lean toward fluted on both sides ?? Haida?? Fluted on one side only and I've never found a connection to the single grooved daggers. The voluted curled double pommel seems to appear throughout history in various locations around the world. There should be other threads regarding these knives here somewhere. Steve

5th August 2014, 08:37 PM	#5
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	Very many thanks for the replies, and the leads to very interesting information. It has sorted out a few issues in my mind. I'm now wondering whether my first prejudice (that the copper ones were 'originals', later copied in iron) was right; were daggers in fact made in both metals at the same period, but maybe used for different purposes? The only thing I might add is this picture I found today in Jonathan King's book "First Peoples First Contacts". Engraved after a sketch by Frederick Whymper done in 1867, it shows Koyukon or Tanana River men hunting from canoes using these daggers Attached Images

4th August 2014, 03:40 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello LJ, search with the keyword "tlingit" and you will find a few threads with this sort of daggers. I can't be from great help because I only know what I have read at this place and that I like this daggers! Yours (?) look very nice! Regards, Detlef

4th August 2014, 04:34 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN THE EARLY DAYS SUCH A KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO A HIGH CHIEF ADDING TO THE PRESTIGE AND WEALTH OF THE TRIBE. THIS WOULD GAIN FAVOR FOR THE ONE PRESENTING SUCH A GREAT GIFT AND NO DOUBT SPECIAL TRADE AND TRAPPING PRIVILEGES WOULD BE GIVEN IN RETURN OR PERHAPS A WIFE. SUCH KNIVES WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN COMMON TRADE GOODS CARRIED IN LARGE NUMBERS OR TRADED WILLY-NELLY TO JUST ANYONE. DURING LATER YEARS WHEN SETTLEMENTS WITH A GOOD BLACKSMITH WERE PRESENT PERHAPS MORE OF THESE WERE MADE AND MAY HAVE EVEN BEEN COMMISSIONED BY THE TRIBES FOR GIFTS IN THEIR CEREMONIES. TAKE THIS AS MOSTLY CONJECTURE AS i JUST DRAW IT FROM THINGS I READ IN THE PAST AND CAN NOT GIVE SPECIFIC REFERENCE SOURCES.