New broadsword marking Wundes head

[M ELEY]

Hello all. I know the Forum rules about posting the whole sword/item, but it is not in hand and the the poor pics don't do it justice. I will post as soon as I get it. What I do have is the maker's mark. I know it's the Wundes king's head stamp as opposed to the Blackamoor stamp and later German trade markings.

What I can say is that it is a broadsword blade with the Wundes family mark pictured. Auction description says there are four head stamps total? Surfing the web, I thought perhaps Peter Wundes the Elder (1580-1630) or Peter the Younger (1630-85)?? I'm only going by wht little info I can get from the web, so I'm hoping we can narrow it down somewhat.
Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Ahoy Cap'n!!
It seems things have been damnably becalmed of late in these waters! Its good to see a flare!
The sword sounds really interesting (I loves intrigue).....and I think you're on the right mark with PETER Wundes sr. and jr. as they used the kings head WITHOUT beard. The same data you have in your entry appears in "European Makers of Edged Weapons and their Marks" (Staffan Kinman) and notes these two as using the beardless kings head.

The multiples (of four) seem a convention of the Wundes'.

According to Gardner(1963) Johannes Wundes (1560-1610) used kings head and orb with 'W'.
Peter Wundes (1580-1600) used kings head.
These Wundes' were all related according to this ref.

In Wagner (1967) Johannes uses kings head (bearded) but on other blades he spells out name with cross and orb at each end and in the center was the Passau wolf. These it notes were for consignments to merchants there for swords for mercenaries of Arch Duke Leopold V.

It sounds most like Peter Wundes but hard to tell which, as they both used the beardless kings head. It sounds as if the mark was used in general by the family, and perhaps which one may have been determined by the number of heads? These guys were the only ones using them, especially multiple.

[M ELEY]

Hello my friend and thank you for responding! Always good to hear from you, Jim. Thank you as well for confirming my suspicions as to which Wundes it might be. Of course, I know there's room for more speculation, but I think we at least have the time-line correct, being circa 1600-80-ish. Great information on the other markings of family members, which does seem to narrow it down to the two 'Peters'. Thank you also for identifying which volume the Wundes markings were listed in. I found the page with the multiple kings-head stamps on another forum, but no listing as the the source. Can't wait to have the item in hand in order to get more of everyone's feedback-
Mark

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I know the Forum rules about posting the whole sword/item ...

Not so rigid as a rule Mark; more a convenient requirement. Exceptions to consider, of course .
Wait till we see the whole thing. Remember the (Wundes) Kings heads are one of those symbols known to be replicated by the competition.

[M ELEY]

Good point, Fernando. As the sword will take a while to get to me, I might post the auction pics once I download them.

I am assuming the competition was still contemporary with the Wundes family? If that is the case, at least the time line would be the same (roughly)...

[M ELEY]

Hey everyone. I posted this broadsword (with existing auction pics, don't have the sword yet!) under 'Basket hilted swords' (Cathey's post). I'll post more pics once I get sword in hand to narrow down the Wundes marks.

[M ELEY]

Well, I'll post it here as well. The German broadsword blade is fitted into a nice Scottish basket hilt, circa 1700. Here's the sword-

[M ELEY]

I love the fact this sword is on the timeline of 1715 and "the 45" (Jacobite Rebellion). The rounded thin bars and 'S' guard indicative of the Stirling sword makers.

[M ELEY]

It turns out Ulfberth posted a half-basket sword with the exact king's head marking - here's the pics


And here's the thread-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...sh+basket+hilt

I am not arguing as to the absoluteness of this being the Wundes mark. As I understand it, there might have been copiers of their mark. The 4 heads do appear of the pattern of Peter Wundes. As in Ulfberth's sword marking, there are no 'Andrea Ferara' lettering in between, but I'm not sure this is a deal-breaker for it not being Wundes. Just as we've seen that the different family members changed their logo over time (and they were around for an awfully long time!), I'd have to see proof that the Ferara marking was always present, especially for blades that were purely made for export-


In any case, at the very least, I think we can all agree the sword is period and not a reworking or a fake. Soon to have it in my grasp! Can't wait!

Note that Ulfberth's pictured sword is an English officer's type dating late 17th/early 18th c.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark
Thank you for posting this and the link! It is good to see this thread from 2016 which I honestly had forgotten about. From this it is clear what a learning curve there is in the study of arms, and why I always say of myself, while I have 'studied' (obsessed) with swords for nearly five decades, I still truly feel effectively a student as I NEVER stop learning.

This interesting example posted by Ulfberth is indeed an English type of about 1740s+. Here the 'S' element (with scrolls) is seen as simply structural without specific symbolism, and aesthetically applied.

Rereading my notes from 2016, the kings head seems to have been 'acquired' by Weyersberg c. 1770s. As I have held, while German blade makers were well known to spuriously use key Spanish marks and wording/names, with some Italian, it does not seem they used those of their peers.

Here I would note that terms like 'always' or 'never' must be considered with profound caveat, as of course there were bound to be exceptions. In my view, the 'kings heads' marking convention of the Wundes 'dynasty' does appear to have had variations, and with that, the 'four' heads pattern seems to be the case.
While the interpolation of the popular ANDREA FERARA in my estimation would suggest added imbuement to the mystique of the already notable Wundes mark.
It seems that the four heads, and with this famed name exist in more abundance than I had been aware, but I still contend that it was not a standard, but a known variation.

These kinds of anomalies only add to the mystique and inherent charm of these amazing Scottish swords!

I cant wait for you to get it too Cap'n!!!!

[M ELEY]

Hello Jim and thanks for your help on this intriguing piece! Still not in hand, but I'm expecting it today or perhaps tomorrow (Christmas delays and all). I still feel the chronological time period of pre-Cullodan to be accurate based on the hilt patterning, S-bar ( which seems to have faded out or at least drastically changed mid century, etc). The Weyersberg marking king's head is very distinct, is bearded and looking straight ahead (not at an angle as these king's heads are, with even a side profile of the nose being apparent). The Weyersburg stamp also lacks the shoulders (?), torso (?) or whatnot of the king's head stamp on mine. It seems we just don't have enough information on the various stamps of the Wundes "clan", nor their metamorphosis over time. Spurious mark? Perhaps, or the real deal as yet not pinned down. In any case, I feel that our little friend here is smack dab in the middle of the two Rebellions, which is fine with me! Once in hand, I will carefully study the blade to see if there are any traces of other markings. Thanks again to all viewers and comments...
Mark

[M ELEY]

I added a red buffer cloth to the basket as it would have had back in the day. This sword is still the gem in my collection; untampered with, intact and dating to the period of Culloden- 1730-40's. I've done some research on the king's heads as far as the Wundes family. This particular mark found on mine has several cousins that can be seen in "Culloden: The Swords and the Sorrows". Many of the German blades had the king's heads interspersed with 'Andrea Ferrera', some just have the name, while others have just the heads. It was noted that the Weyersburg smiths began using the king's head stamps in later (second half 18th c.) on their blades, but their stamp is very different from the earlier marks. Some of the blades pictured in that reference (taken from swords at the museum in Glascow) had very weak markings of the Fererra name, which makes me wonder if mine might have had that marking, but it got polished off over time. In any case, a great survivor of the time period!