Revolutionary Fascine Knife

[Billman]

Hi
I regularly search the net for new images or information on billhooks, and found a Revolutionary Fascine Knife on ebay USA. I have some queries on this, and tried to contact the seller to voice them, but he/she does not accept messages or questions via eBay, and as I have no other contact details thought I would throw my concerns open for discussion...

The description reads:

A classic utility of the 18th century military engineer in his construction of breastworks and fortifications, this all original fascines (pronounced faseens) knife measuring just over 16" in total length with a heavy hand-forged iron blade and deep maker's touch mark. The leather washer grip with "rat-tail" tang remain intact and solid with period field use wear

However the images of the tool shout at me 19th century or even 20th century Italian roncola (billhook)...

The shape of the blade, the leather handle and the hand guard are all typically Italian. The blade appear to be forged from an old farrier's rasp, most pre-20th century tools are of wrought iron with a welded steel cutting edge...

Although there is mention of a touch-mark, there is no image (except the flattened teeth of the rasp) - so no comparison can be made...

Below two images of the tool on eBay, and some Italian roncole for comparison of blade shape, handle detail and hand guard - plus some typucalItalian makers' touch-marks....

Comments please???

[Rick]

Rules Applying to the Discussion Fora (Ethnographic Weapons, Keris Warung Kopi & European Armoury) Specifically

1. Discussion of items currently in the process of being offered for sale, especially active auctions, is strictly prohibited. This prohibition also includes posting of links or other identifying clues (such as auction numbers) and calling attention that a previously discussed item is now for sale.

[Billman]

Now the auction has ended, I will post the images - but it seems to me that a lot of European imported tools are being sold in the US as having been made in the US pre 1800. Many of these are also being sold as weapons, when they are in fact agricultural tools - and some even have obvious 19th or early 20th century maker's marks.

Funny how a tool bought in a french brocante or on ebay.de for 10 to 20 euros suddenly acquires an extra 100 years in age and an increase in value of 1000% and ends up for sale at $100 to $200. I have even recently seen French vineyard coup-marcs on sale for close to $1000 - you can still pick them up in France for under $100...... Import duties into the US must be extortionate, or someone is ripping off someone else....

[M ELEY]

Do a search on the 'Bay for 'naval boarding axe' and 90% of what you will see are Euro camp axes, fire hatchets, etc, being sold for outragious prices. There's even one reputable antique swords site that is (unfortunately) doing the same thing...sigh.

[Billman]

Axes of the same pattern as Naval Boarding axes, with a spike at one end are very similar to the certain patterns of tomahawk traded to the Indian tribes of North America and Canada by English and French settlers and fur traders. I have a Quebecois friend who discoverd one in an archaelogical dig earlier this year, and is probably 17th possibly 18th century.

In doing some research for him I found an almost identical one was still being made by Leborgne of France in the 1920's.... as a fireman's axe (hache de pompier) and was also being made up to the end of the 20th century (and although not listed in their current catalogue, they would still make it upon request to a minimum order quantity....)....

See No 428

Put one of these in the ground for a few years.....

[Dmitry]

I'd like to see those billhook photos, or a link to the ended auction.

Who is the dealer that's selling fire axes as boarding axes?

Thanks!

[David]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Who is the dealer that's selling fire axes as boarding axes?

Just to head this one off at the pass gentlemen, please keep accusations such as these to private messaging if you are going to name names....Thank you.

[M ELEY]

The predecessor to the boarding axe was indeed the trade spiked tomahawk axes of the early fur trade. Gilkerson mentions this, as does Hartzler's volume on frontier axes. I've even seen a true N. American Type III boarding axe that had old Native American brass tacks and wire branding that was the real deal (meaning, it started out life as a naval piece, but somewhere along the lines, got traded out as a tomahawk).

Sorry, David. I was not trying to create a stir, nor was I going to openly name that source here-

[broadaxe]

To set things clear, boarding axes were carried to sea way before the "discovering" of America. Check this rather famous manuscript from the 13th century, on the right.

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

To set things clear, boarding axes were carried to sea way before the "discovering" of America. Check this rather famous manuscript from the 13th century, on the right.

A great image! Thanks for posting it. What is the source?
It appears that a fellow on the left is shooting an arrow with a grenade on the business end, and his friend is slinging one.

[M ELEY]

I must say I am surprised at the early date of this display depicting a classic boarding axe! Had I not seen it, I would have supposed the boarding axes you spoke of from earlier periods would have lacked the spike and been more of the "battle axe" type. Awesome documentation piece as well. This once again makes me question whether some of the earlier "tomahawks" with longer butted hafts might have served in a naval capacity.

[kronckew]

i imagine that the axe was a useful shipboard weapon/tool since it's inception in the start of the age of metals and likely before. as fire is a classical sea weapon, a tool for cutting grappling hook lines, netting, rigging, shifting broken timbers, masts, spars, booms etc. is very useful. a spiked axe is not only such a tool, but makes a handy weapon. maybe not quite as good as a pike or hanger, but a lot better than nothing, especially if you know how to use it. not surprising that fire axes would be very similar if not almost identical. roman legions used a spike axe (dolabra*), i'd guess the roman navy & marines would also. seeing a spike axe in a military vessel would thus have been normal for millenia.

the roman dolabra that follows, if it was a bit more ravaged by time would look much like the axe posted earlier.


dolabra on trajan's column, rome from 113 a.d.:

[broadaxe]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I must say I am surprised at the early date of this display depicting a classic boarding axe! Had I not seen it, I would have supposed the boarding axes you spoke of from earlier periods would have lacked the spike and been more of the "battle axe" type. Awesome documentation piece as well. This once again makes me question whether some of the earlier "tomahawks" with longer butted hafts might have served in a naval capacity.

This illustration is unique for display of large array of weapons, ship-board: boarding axe, broad axe, fire arrow, fire grenade with staff-sling, grapnel and so on. Dmitry, I don't know the exact source but it is quite famous and used worldwide in naval warfare references. It is the manuscript depicting the chace, capture and exacution at sea of one infamous, early 13th century pirate of the North Sea, Eustace "the Monk", or "Le Moin" or "The Black Monk".
kronckew, very true, yours truely is signed on an online article saying the same. Unfortunately this article is cited occasionaly by sellers on ebay with no credit, sometimes for the wrong reasons.
I had my own thoughts regarding the dolabra as a naval weapon, but the relics I'm familiar with are too large - good for sapping and trench work, cumbersome for ship board.

[M ELEY]

Great information, guys! Thanks!

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Dmitry, I don't know the exact source but it is quite famous and used worldwide in naval warfare references. It is the manuscript depicting the chace, capture and exacution at sea of one infamous, early 13th century pirate of the North Sea, Eustace "the Monk", or "Le Moin" or "The Black Monk".

I remember seeing similar scenes in an illuminated manuscript detailing Swedish [I think] subjugation of Finland, but not as detailed, as far as the small arms go.
These must be rowing galleys, or barges of some sort; there are no sails or masts in sight, nor eyelets for oars.

[fernando]

Boarding of the Triton by the French privateer Le Hasard, steel engraved by Ambroise Garneray, who was also a privateer; a high probability for the images being close to real.

.

[M ELEY]

Amazing illustration, Fernando. It's always interesting to see art work contemporary to the use of such things for validation. About what period did this pirate exist? From the stetch, I'm assuming 17th-18th c.?

[fernando]

Hi Mark

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Amazing illustration, Fernando. It's always interesting to see art work contemporary to the use of such things for validation. About what period did this pirate exist? From the stetch, I'm assuming 17th-18th c.?

The Triton, a thirty cannon, 100 crew British ship was boarded and captured on 27th january 1797, by the French corsair (privateer) brig "Le Hasard", comanded by Robert Surcouf, one of the most famous French corsairs.

[M ELEY]

Ahh, I should have recognised the ship's name. I've read a book on Surcouf awhile back. Interesting fellow...and unlike most pirates, a hero in his homeland. Thanks again for the great illustration.

[broadaxe]

Actually this illustration is pretty accurate, showing the french boarding axe of that period. http://www.swordandstone.com/weapons...ges/fr_axe.jpg

[Dmitry]

Below is a boarding axe as part of decorations on one of my small-swords. It is hallmarked by a London silversmith to what I believe is the year 1755. The lion with a snake/serpent in his paws was a popular Victory motif for the British. The snake would at various times represent the plethora of diverse enemies of England, most notably the French.

[Billman]

Thanks for all the images of the 'boarding axes' - I will send the link on to my Canadian friend who sent me the picture of the one discovered in Quebec. I have seen almost identical from the Roman era, so it is likely (as with the billhook and other edge tools) a shape that has remained in common use for hundreds, of not thousands, of years....

Re the billhook that started this line, it is back for sale again - I'll send Dmitry a PM with the link.... thus avoiding any controversy in a public forum..

One of the great things about this and other forums is the sharing of knowledge, and expertise....

[whistlinbill]

I'd be right careful about buying any sort of "Revolutionary fascine knife", no matter how much they look like the photos in collector books. That hook-bill shape was used all over the world for cutting brush, trimming tea and coffee
plants, etc., etc. The main problem at hand is to find out where the particular rusty relic (typically unmarked, or if marked, undocumented) actually originated.
In my experience, LOTS of these have come from Mexico, where they use
them to this day--I used to travel down there, and have a beer case or
two of them, some whole, some broken, that I bought in Mexico. And they
ARE rusty. And they DO look old (and some of them probably ARE old),
and I defy you to definitely tell by style or looks, that they started life south of the border!
Bill

[Billman]

Hi Bill

Yes, a lot of Revolutionary Fascine Knives are a) much later b) non military in origin and usage - one has to look very closely, even at those sold by the 'experts' - despite that one can find some nice examples of ordinary billhooks at reasonable prices...

This one I bought from the US - but even I have no idea of its origin... The little ring may have been welded on later, but a similar feature is found on Italian and Spanish blades, but on the other side, next to the cutting edge..

I know almost nothing of the Mexican billhook - so would love to see some images of what is used there... If not on open forum, by PM or please contact me via by website - Google search for billhooks and look for a co.uk address...

Bob