Help with W.W.1 British? cavalry lance

Andy Stevens · 1st January 2008, 04:04 PM

Hi to all and a Happy New Year,
Had this lance a while now, and have just decided to try and find out something about its history. I know its a little off the normal forum thing, but it certainly is a wonderful weapon, has a certain ammount of ethnographical cross over and if nothing else is just damn interesting

I'm hopeing somebody may be able to tell if the lance is in fact British or maybe Indian- was there a difference between the two armies weapons?
The stamp on the lance head reads to my eye as:
N2.1.1.P
CO1 - crow's foot with 5 below- C1915

The leather shoulder/wrist strap, is I think a replacement as is the white rope working.
Many thanks

spiral · 1st January 2008, 05:48 PM

Nice, not certan the stick is original though....

The hand cut stamps used to make the markings are not as precise as the British ones. There look typical early ww1 era Indian made stamps.

obviously 1915 is the date.

Co. Could be the maker or inspection base mark, Co usualy stands for Cossipore a well known British Indian arsenal.

Is there an I under the broad arrow above the 5 ? Looks like there is? Thats the Indian goverment mark.

can you take clearer photos of markings. The 5 is the inspectors number

N2.1.1.P will be a unit marking, the ones might stand for I as well.

A unit marking ending with a P word could be a police unit perhaps? {just surmising, that one.}

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 1st January 2008, 05:58 PM

Hi Andy,
Thanks so much for posting this! These lances are indeed within the perameters of ethnographic edged weapons in that they were typically used by Indian Army lancer regiments from the 19th century and possibly as a parade weapon even to present times. I have a pamphlet of listings of markings on British weapons which is not handy at the moment, so other means of locating the units represented will have to do unless hopefully someone out there can identify.

It does seem that the Indian lancer units of WWI used bamboo shafts on their lances, while the British ones were of ash. The examples I have handled were I believe Patiala Lancers, 3rd Skinners Horse and others I cannot recall.
In WWI, various units including these and several others saw service as cavalry including units of the famed "Bengal Lancers", and I believe these units were also present during the action in China during the "Boxer Rebellion".

A great resource for identifying these marks and information on the lances would be the arms dept. at the National Army Museum in London (for anyone located there!

and who would have loads of detail on all forms of the weapon.

I should also note that the lance was still present with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police a number of years ago, and I was fortunate to see one of thier most impressive demonstrations where the riders carried lances and rode in formation...an honestly breathtaking sight!

Hopefully we might hear from someone with more on the markings, and it would be great to hear from others on other examples of use of the lance in modern times.

Great post Andy!!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 1st January 2008, 06:05 PM

Whoa! I just posted and saw Spirals post.....ridin' in like the cavalry w/pennons flappin'!!

Thanks Spiral ! Again, you really pack the heat with British military material!
As you mention the 'P' might indeed represent police, and India did maintain mounted police well into the 20th century in various regions. Do you have a reference resource that offers data on these markings? I wish I could think of the title of the handy little booklet I have somewhere!

All the best,
Jim

Andy Stevens · 2nd January 2008, 11:13 AM

Thanks to Jim and Spiral,
I've taken a few more pic's this time with the tripod, hopefully might be able to see clearer.

This lance was picked up at a boot sale, it was one of twelve for sale, I had only enough cash and shirt buttons to pick up one example, but the rest were identical, more wear and tear on some but generally the same. The Bamboo pole was common to all. The weapons had been in store for a long time; they smelt terrible and were very,very dirty. I imagine they were cleared out of a regimental depot by an over zeolous quarter master-a very common thing- I've heard stories about WW1 webbing sets being binned by the sack load! I just hope these lances didn't fall of the back of an Elephant

I have just read in " The history of the British calvary" by the Marguess of Anglesey, that the selection of Bamboo was a very difficult as the wood suffers very badly from disease, and on average 11/12ths of bamboos sent
for approval were discarded. Looks as though Spiral might well be right about it being a replacement pole.

Just out of interest, was the pennon always red and white, or have I been watching too many versions of Custer's last stand?

spiral · 2nd January 2008, 05:10 PM

Thanks Andy, I still cant be certan whats under the arrow. I guess its one that needs interpriting under a 10x lens in various lights, which is often the way.

Jim, well that one looked quite straightforward to me but for research I use several sources, but One of the best markings books For Brit. & Empire forces is ...

"The broad arrow" " British & Empire factory, production, proof Inspection,armourers, unit & issue markings."

By Ian D. Skennerton It A4 small print, 140 pages long.

With a thourgh reading & a study of many examples in hand it all becomes easier & faster to interpret many of the marking even amongst the infinate variations.

For Indian empire marks the list is far from complete but it still aids interpritation when combined with other clues.

There a couple of errors re. dates of some markings, ive noticed , {the dating spectrum is wider in some cases. from dated & provinaced examples I know of.} & Some markings are interpreted with slight differances on occasion or date. But essentialy anyone who collects old British Army Swords rifles or weapons with unit marks etc. will find it very usefull.

Ive identified many old WW1 units bayonets & even bandoliers from obscure units with its help.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2008, 06:03 PM

Thanks very much for the suggestion on "The Broad Arrow" Spiral. That pretty well cinches it! I must get a copy of this as I've seen it referenced so many times. I've tried to recall whether British lances were mentioned in Robson, but cannot recall. I do know that one source was the venerable old reference "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" by Charles Ffoulkes. There was a great article in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, I think in the 1970's which frustratingly is among my files not handy at present.

Good one on the Custer movies Andy!!! One of the quintessant examples of artistic license is the misperceived ideas of that tragic event looked like! In my travels I was at the Little Big Horn for about a week several months ago, and were actually situated at one of the very locations where Custers troops camped just prior to the action.
Swords and lances at Little Big Horn....not! However, if anybody had the lances, the Sioux warriors would have had them...no pennons though

As for the British lances, the red and white were the colors used by the British military on thier lances overall, with the exception being 3rd Skinners Horse in the Indian cavalry who had yellow and blue pennons.
The cavalry lancers of various countries all seem to have used color coding on thier lance pennons as well, for example the German uhlans in WWI had black and white pennons and thier lances were metal.

All the best,
Jim

1st January 2008, 04:04 PM	#1
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Help with W.W.1 British? cavalry lance Hi to all and a Happy New Year, Had this lance a while now, and have just decided to try and find out something about its history. I know its a little off the normal forum thing, but it certainly is a wonderful weapon, has a certain ammount of ethnographical cross over and if nothing else is just damn interesting I'm hopeing somebody may be able to tell if the lance is in fact British or maybe Indian- was there a difference between the two armies weapons? The stamp on the lance head reads to my eye as: N2.1.1.P CO1 - crow's foot with 5 below- C1915 The leather shoulder/wrist strap, is I think a replacement as is the white rope working. Many thanks Attached Images

2nd January 2008, 11:13 AM	#5
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Thanks to Jim and Spiral, I've taken a few more pic's this time with the tripod, hopefully might be able to see clearer. This lance was picked up at a boot sale, it was one of twelve for sale, I had only enough cash and shirt buttons to pick up one example, but the rest were identical, more wear and tear on some but generally the same. The Bamboo pole was common to all. The weapons had been in store for a long time; they smelt terrible and were very,very dirty. I imagine they were cleared out of a regimental depot by an over zeolous quarter master-a very common thing- I've heard stories about WW1 webbing sets being binned by the sack load! I just hope these lances didn't fall of the back of an Elephant I have just read in " The history of the British calvary" by the Marguess of Anglesey, that the selection of Bamboo was a very difficult as the wood suffers very badly from disease, and on average 11/12ths of bamboos sent for approval were discarded. Looks as though Spiral might well be right about it being a replacement pole. Just out of interest, was the pennon always red and white, or have I been watching too many versions of Custer's last stand? Attached Images

1st January 2008, 05:48 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Nice, not certan the stick is original though.... The hand cut stamps used to make the markings are not as precise as the British ones. There look typical early ww1 era Indian made stamps. obviously 1915 is the date. Co. Could be the maker or inspection base mark, Co usualy stands for Cossipore a well known British Indian arsenal. Is there an I under the broad arrow above the 5 ? Looks like there is? Thats the Indian goverment mark. can you take clearer photos of markings. The 5 is the inspectors number N2.1.1.P will be a unit marking, the ones might stand for I as well. A unit marking ending with a P word could be a police unit perhaps? {just surmising, that one.} Spiral

1st January 2008, 05:58 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Andy, Thanks so much for posting this! These lances are indeed within the perameters of ethnographic edged weapons in that they were typically used by Indian Army lancer regiments from the 19th century and possibly as a parade weapon even to present times. I have a pamphlet of listings of markings on British weapons which is not handy at the moment, so other means of locating the units represented will have to do unless hopefully someone out there can identify. It does seem that the Indian lancer units of WWI used bamboo shafts on their lances, while the British ones were of ash. The examples I have handled were I believe Patiala Lancers, 3rd Skinners Horse and others I cannot recall. In WWI, various units including these and several others saw service as cavalry including units of the famed "Bengal Lancers", and I believe these units were also present during the action in China during the "Boxer Rebellion". A great resource for identifying these marks and information on the lances would be the arms dept. at the National Army Museum in London (for anyone located there! and who would have loads of detail on all forms of the weapon. I should also note that the lance was still present with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police a number of years ago, and I was fortunate to see one of thier most impressive demonstrations where the riders carried lances and rode in formation...an honestly breathtaking sight! Hopefully we might hear from someone with more on the markings, and it would be great to hear from others on other examples of use of the lance in modern times. Great post Andy!! All the best, Jim

1st January 2008, 06:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Whoa! I just posted and saw Spirals post.....ridin' in like the cavalry w/pennons flappin'!! Thanks Spiral ! Again, you really pack the heat with British military material! As you mention the 'P' might indeed represent police, and India did maintain mounted police well into the 20th century in various regions. Do you have a reference resource that offers data on these markings? I wish I could think of the title of the handy little booklet I have somewhere! All the best, Jim

2nd January 2008, 05:10 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Andy, I still cant be certan whats under the arrow. I guess its one that needs interpriting under a 10x lens in various lights, which is often the way. Jim, well that one looked quite straightforward to me but for research I use several sources, but One of the best markings books For Brit. & Empire forces is ... "The broad arrow" " British & Empire factory, production, proof Inspection,armourers, unit & issue markings." By Ian D. Skennerton It A4 small print, 140 pages long. With a thourgh reading & a study of many examples in hand it all becomes easier & faster to interpret many of the marking even amongst the infinate variations. For Indian empire marks the list is far from complete but it still aids interpritation when combined with other clues. There a couple of errors re. dates of some markings, ive noticed , {the dating spectrum is wider in some cases. from dated & provinaced examples I know of.} & Some markings are interpreted with slight differances on occasion or date. But essentialy anyone who collects old British Army Swords rifles or weapons with unit marks etc. will find it very usefull. Ive identified many old WW1 units bayonets & even bandoliers from obscure units with its help. Spiral

2nd January 2008, 06:03 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Thanks very much for the suggestion on "The Broad Arrow" Spiral. That pretty well cinches it! I must get a copy of this as I've seen it referenced so many times. I've tried to recall whether British lances were mentioned in Robson, but cannot recall. I do know that one source was the venerable old reference "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" by Charles Ffoulkes. There was a great article in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, I think in the 1970's which frustratingly is among my files not handy at present. Good one on the Custer movies Andy!!! One of the quintessant examples of artistic license is the misperceived ideas of that tragic event looked like! In my travels I was at the Little Big Horn for about a week several months ago, and were actually situated at one of the very locations where Custers troops camped just prior to the action. Swords and lances at Little Big Horn....not! However, if anybody had the lances, the Sioux warriors would have had them...no pennons though As for the British lances, the red and white were the colors used by the British military on thier lances overall, with the exception being 3rd Skinners Horse in the Indian cavalry who had yellow and blue pennons. The cavalry lancers of various countries all seem to have used color coding on thier lance pennons as well, for example the German uhlans in WWI had black and white pennons and thier lances were metal. All the best, Jim