22nd October 2006, 05:36 PM | #1 |
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Old Tibetan Phurba for comment or information
Hi everybody...
A Tibetan Phurba, old and large 75cms long many are only 25-30cms. Carved wood (wood is a scarce commodity in the region), very nice patina. Not a weapon in the accepted sense, but a 'Spiritual, weapon which maybe of interest..... ' The Shaman's ritual tool from Nepal.The Phurba, a ceremonial dagger, is a central ritual tool for all shamanic rituals-so central, in fact, that its use is rarely specified but simply presumed.While other objects of similar shape can be considered phurba, it is usually a "knife" with three distinct segments, one of which is a characteristic three sided blade or point. The segments and the triple blade represent the three spirit worlds, while the phurba as a whole symbolises the "world axis" binding all three worlds together.But it is more than a ritual object; during a healing it is the jhankari himself. During his trance, the jhankari transforms his spiritual body into a phurba and takes flight through the spirit world in this form.' Any info or comments would be most appreciated......thankyou |
22nd October 2006, 05:48 PM | #2 |
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Hi David.
Where did you get this? Who said it was Tibetan? I only ask as I do not think this is from anywhere near Asia. |
22nd October 2006, 05:59 PM | #3 |
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The coloured cloth and light glare are making reading your picture quite difficult. Hard to get an idea of any patina. Can you take some day light pics on something a little more neutral. I am certain this is nothing to do with Tibet.
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22nd October 2006, 07:36 PM | #4 |
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I am quite sure that it is not a Tibetan phurba, though wooden ones do exist. Could this be a Bon phurba or a piece from a different culture altogether?
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22nd October 2006, 07:40 PM | #5 |
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Perhaps it is Tibetan The outlined part is very much like one of those thunder bolt things? and the fish could be buddist symbols. I still have doubts. If it is Tibetan from your pictures it does seem it may be fairly recent. Nearly ever antique I vist has something Tibetan/Chinese. The style is very much like other areas. Day light pics would help.
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22nd October 2006, 07:40 PM | #6 |
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I've several antique Tibetan purbu. None look anything like this. IMHO, the
carving and design looks more African in origin. Rich |
22nd October 2006, 07:45 PM | #7 |
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I do not think it is African. I will hold back untill we see some better pics but I am glad you think the same. The style of the fish and the overall decoration scream something else to me.
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22nd October 2006, 09:45 PM | #8 |
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I agree this piece has several stylistic differences with Tibetan and Nepalese phurbas. The center section outlined does resemble the dorje, but I think only a resemblance. The faces on the sides look like African Dan masks.
Quite a strange piece. |
22nd October 2006, 10:12 PM | #9 |
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Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving.
I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item... |
23rd October 2006, 06:48 AM | #10 | |
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There are some Tibetan and Nepalese shaman drum handles that get longer, but I don't think this is a drum handle either. Most of these handles are no more than about twenty inches long though I do have a temple drum that has a longer handle. But it is thicker. How thick is your piece? Does the pointed end have a metal cap? Perhaps this is some kind of wand??? Something about it disturbs me. |
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23rd October 2006, 10:59 AM | #11 |
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Looks full of classical Nepali {perhaps Tamang.} shamanic symbolism to me, Havent seen one that size before though.
Almost looks like bottom half is standerd Phurba, & top half is whats unusual. Spiral |
23rd October 2006, 10:57 PM | #12 |
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Thanks Spiral....good call....you certainly seem to be in the right area
I found two images of 'full sized' masks from that area....not identical to those on the 'phurba' but demonstrates similarities... On the picture below them I've indicated where it feels comfortable to hold (just feels right ..and 'rub marks' seem to confirm this) Feels more like a Phurba 'sword' or 'spear'...than dagger. Tim I will try and post daylight pics soon, (if the rain stops ) Very intriqued about this piece...cannot seem to find a similar sized one anywhere on the web..... |
1st November 2006, 02:50 PM | #13 |
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At first I was skeptical about this actually being a phurba at all, mostly because of the style of carving which at first glance does look African in its execution. After closer consideration of the pics and doing some research into the vast extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, I think it may very well be a phurba after all, but one far removed from Tibet, possibly Mongolian. It does display the essential morphological features that define a phurba, namely a three-sided blade and cylindrical handle. It also seems to feature stylized renditions of traditional phurba iconography: The makara head from whose mouth the blade projects, the dorje or vajra ("diamond thunderbolt") carving of the lower handle, and the three faces of the phurba deity. The rest is decorated in the local motifs of the region where it was crafted. What needs to be understood when viewing phurba is that despite being called "ceremonial daggers", phurba have their origins among the nomadic tribes of Central Asia as tent pegs. The word "phurba" means something like "to spike, or nail", having the connotation of pinning something to the ground. They are most commonly made of iron, though hardwood examples are by no means uncommon. Their use as a shamanic ritual weapon against demons predates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet by 1000 years or more. Whatever the case, it's a very unique and curious artifact.
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1st November 2006, 04:41 PM | #14 |
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Welcome ...
Welcome to the EAA Forum Captain D.
I deleted your duplicate post when confirming your registration on the forum. If there was anything in your second message that is not in the first, please add it back. Ian Last edited by Ian; 1st November 2006 at 08:13 PM. |
1st November 2006, 04:49 PM | #15 |
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Thanks for the welcome Ian. I only duplicated my posting because after 3 tries it wouldn't post. The one you posted for me is the original and contains everything I wanted to say.
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1st November 2006, 05:06 PM | #16 | |
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Sorry about the delay ...
Quote:
Glad we could get you up and running, if a little tardy. ian. |
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1st November 2006, 05:16 PM | #17 |
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Hello...welcome..and thankyou Captain D... I appreciate your efforts...I have had great difficulty in 'tying' this Phurba to a specific tribe or people. I have been 'googling' every search keyword I could think of and have not found a similar sized or decorated example. I even searched all the 'tourist/ gift ' type sellers/outlets from Asia in case this was made for 'those that like to travel'......but nothing.
I am beginning to feel that this is, indeed, authentic (made for spiritual purposes...rather than 'decoration' and is of ethnic origin) and is something that I cannot help but 'pick up' everytime I pass it......I hope this is not an indication of the possible (evil ?? ) 'power' it may pocess |
1st November 2006, 08:28 PM | #18 |
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Welcome Capt D,
Mongolian - hmmm.....if Central Asia I would have thought Bon religion and not Tibetan....if you have any pictures of non-Buddhist Mongolian phurbas that would be great. |
1st November 2006, 08:33 PM | #19 |
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I always though that Padmasambhava was credited with inventing the Phurba? around 750AD?
Thats what the Nepalis & Tibetans belive & teach. Still after all these years that gets rather into belief rather than proof. Spiral |
1st November 2006, 10:02 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
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1st November 2006, 10:22 PM | #21 | |
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Quote:
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1st November 2006, 10:25 PM | #22 |
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Hi Captain D,
I totally agree that the iconography is the key.....I have checked many websites in an effort to find matches....the Budhist icons on the 'blade' are fairly well known, it is the 'upper' half of the Phurba which is more unusual.....almost as if the iconography is more specific to the people from where this originated 9as you already summised) The 'crown' at the top is formed by 'plant leaves' or petals but do not seem to be the usual form of a lotus flower, a common icon. If Mongolia is a possibility then this plant crown could be significant...desserts usually have a small number of flowering plants that bloom in unusual conditions (high level of rainfall for instance), it would not be unreasonable to 'postulate' that such a plant would have 'iconic meaning' to them......much like the lotus to Budhists..... worth a try....google here I come........again |
1st November 2006, 10:55 PM | #23 |
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This thread might be of interest
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2153 Several similar elements as on your piece. While it was quite unusual, I always felt it had some genuine age and wear to it and felt it possible that it had native use and was not something necessarily strictly tourist. |
2nd November 2006, 12:08 AM | #24 | |
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Quote:
Actually, I was refering to the non-iconographic elements of the carving as being a key to identifying this piece. The Buddhist symbolism is clear, the question is, what ethnic group is represented by the overall style of the way this piece was carved and of the other, ie. non-Buddhist carved decorations? |
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2nd November 2006, 02:08 AM | #25 |
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Hi David,
Very interesting phur-pa. I've ignored these so far, but reading about them has kindled my curiosity..they're fascinating artefacts. I've found a very detailed article on them: The Phur-Pa, Tibetan Ritual Daggers (1975 Huntington, John C.) Some of the images in the article are somewhat similar to your example. The lotus leaves, the lower triangular blad ena dthe deity head are clear, but the upper part is indeed strange. The deity heads are indicated as being Bon-po...here are the pics, I could send you the article if you wish...it's very large. All the best, Emanuel |
2nd November 2006, 07:17 AM | #26 |
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Good pictures! Looks like it is a Phurba. The pic on the right although smaller seems to tie up all the lose ends so to speak.
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7th December 2006, 03:34 PM | #27 |
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Found this image...not very good quality (the picture) but shows a larger Phurba made of wood, more ornately carved but of similar size.
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7th December 2006, 07:50 PM | #28 |
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Hi David,
I saw an antique shop in Toronto that featured lots of phurpa and other Tibetan daggers. What struck me is that in most examples, the lotus petals were fully pierced from the cylindrical body of the dagger. In your piece, they are just rounded protrusions. It's a peculiar feature...I'll ask to take some pictures next time I pass by there. I also saw some fantastic examples carved from rock-crystal...quartz I guess. All the best, Emanuel |
7th December 2006, 10:09 PM | #29 |
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Hi Emanuel,
thats very kind of you.... thanks Regards David |
8th December 2006, 11:07 PM | #30 |
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Excellent discussion and information,guys! I've always been fascinated in these pieces and really thought at the beginning of this discussion that this was an African depiction of a phurbu (I was trying to think of any Buddhist influence or colonies on the African coast). Now I want to read up on the Bon. Thanks again!
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