Old Tibetan Phurba for comment or information

katana · 22nd October 2006, 05:36 PM

Hi everybody...
A Tibetan Phurba, old and large 75cms long many are only 25-30cms.
Carved wood (wood is a scarce commodity in the region), very nice patina.
Not a weapon in the accepted sense, but a 'Spiritual, weapon which maybe of interest.....

' The Shaman's ritual tool from Nepal.The Phurba, a ceremonial dagger, is a central ritual tool for all shamanic rituals-so central, in fact, that its use is rarely specified but simply presumed.While other objects of similar shape can be considered phurba, it is usually a "knife" with three distinct segments, one of which is a characteristic three sided blade or point. The segments and the triple blade represent the three spirit worlds, while the phurba as a whole symbolises the "world axis" binding all three worlds together.But it is more than a ritual object; during a healing it is the jhankari himself. During his trance, the jhankari transforms his spiritual body into a phurba and takes flight through the spirit world in this form.'

Any info or comments would be most appreciated......thankyou

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2006, 05:48 PM

Hi David.

Where did you get this? Who said it was Tibetan? I only ask as I do not think this is from anywhere near Asia.

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2006, 05:59 PM

The coloured cloth and light glare are making reading your picture quite difficult. Hard to get an idea of any patina. Can you take some day light pics on something a little more neutral. I am certain this is nothing to do with Tibet.

Battara · 22nd October 2006, 07:36 PM

I am quite sure that it is not a Tibetan phurba, though wooden ones do exist. Could this be a Bon phurba or a piece from a different culture altogether?

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2006, 07:40 PM

Perhaps it is Tibetan

The outlined part is very much like one of those thunder bolt things? and the fish could be buddist symbols. I still have doubts. If it is Tibetan from your pictures it does seem it may be fairly recent. Nearly ever antique I vist has something Tibetan/Chinese. The style is very much like other areas. Day light pics would help.

Rich · 22nd October 2006, 07:40 PM

I've several antique Tibetan purbu. None look anything like this. IMHO, the
carving and design looks more African in origin.

Rich

Tim Simmons · 22nd October 2006, 07:45 PM

I do not think it is African. I will hold back untill we see some better pics but I am glad you think the same. The style of the fish and the overall decoration scream something else to me.

Bill M · 22nd October 2006, 09:45 PM

I agree this piece has several stylistic differences with Tibetan and Nepalese phurbas. The center section outlined does resemble the dorje, but I think only a resemblance. The faces on the sides look like African Dan masks.

Quite a strange piece.

katana · 22nd October 2006, 10:12 PM

Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving.

I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item...

Bill M · 23rd October 2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving.

I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item...

Don't think it is a phurba, though many of them are made of wood. At 30" long it would be MUCH bigger than any I have seen, usually they are no more than ten to eleven inches long.

There are some Tibetan and Nepalese shaman drum handles that get longer, but I don't think this is a drum handle either. Most of these handles are no more than about twenty inches long though I do have a temple drum that has a longer handle. But it is thicker.

How thick is your piece?

Does the pointed end have a metal cap?

Perhaps this is some kind of wand???

Something about it disturbs me.

spiral · 23rd October 2006, 10:59 AM

Looks full of classical Nepali {perhaps Tamang.} shamanic symbolism to me, Havent seen one that size before though.

Almost looks like bottom half is standerd Phurba, & top half is whats unusual.

Spiral

katana · 23rd October 2006, 10:57 PM

Thanks Spiral....good call....you certainly seem to be in the right area

I found two images of 'full sized' masks from that area....not identical to those on the 'phurba' but demonstrates similarities... On the picture below them I've indicated where it feels comfortable to hold (just feels right ..and 'rub marks' seem to confirm this) Feels more like a Phurba 'sword' or 'spear'...than dagger.
Tim I will try and post daylight pics soon, (if the rain stops

) Very intriqued about this piece...cannot seem to find a similar sized one anywhere on the web.....

Captain D · 1st November 2006, 02:50 PM

At first I was skeptical about this actually being a phurba at all, mostly because of the style of carving which at first glance does look African in its execution. After closer consideration of the pics and doing some research into the vast extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, I think it may very well be a phurba after all, but one far removed from Tibet, possibly Mongolian. It does display the essential morphological features that define a phurba, namely a three-sided blade and cylindrical handle. It also seems to feature stylized renditions of traditional phurba iconography: The makara head from whose mouth the blade projects, the dorje or vajra ("diamond thunderbolt") carving of the lower handle, and the three faces of the phurba deity. The rest is decorated in the local motifs of the region where it was crafted. What needs to be understood when viewing phurba is that despite being called "ceremonial daggers", phurba have their origins among the nomadic tribes of Central Asia as tent pegs. The word "phurba" means something like "to spike, or nail", having the connotation of pinning something to the ground. They are most commonly made of iron, though hardwood examples are by no means uncommon. Their use as a shamanic ritual weapon against demons predates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet by 1000 years or more. Whatever the case, it's a very unique and curious artifact.

Ian · 1st November 2006, 04:41 PM

Welcome to the EAA Forum Captain D.

I deleted your duplicate post when confirming your registration on the forum. If there was anything in your second message that is not in the first, please add it back.

Ian

Captain D · 1st November 2006, 04:49 PM

Thanks for the welcome Ian. I only duplicated my posting because after 3 tries it wouldn't post. The one you posted for me is the original and contains everything I wanted to say.

Ian · 1st November 2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain D

Thanks for the welcome Ian. I only duplicated my posting because after 3 tries it wouldn't post. The one you posted for me is the original and contains everything I wanted to say.

Sorry Captain D. You were blocked from posting as part of the new security features we implemented to block a bunch of spammers who were hitting the site. It is necessary to be formally "signed in" by a Moderator after you submit your first post (just so we know you are legit

) Sometimes we are a little slow in getting to the new postings.

Glad we could get you up and running, if a little tardy.

ian.

katana · 1st November 2006, 05:16 PM

Hello...welcome..and thankyou Captain D...

I appreciate your efforts...I have had great difficulty in 'tying' this Phurba to a specific tribe or people. I have been 'googling' every search keyword I could think of and have not found a similar sized or decorated example. I even searched all the 'tourist/ gift ' type sellers/outlets from Asia in case this was made for 'those that like to travel'......but nothing.
I am beginning to feel that this is, indeed, authentic (made for spiritual purposes...rather than 'decoration' and is of ethnic origin) and is something that I cannot help but 'pick up' everytime I pass it......I hope this is not an indication of the possible (evil ??

) 'power' it may pocess

Battara · 1st November 2006, 08:28 PM

Welcome Capt D,

Mongolian - hmmm.....if Central Asia I would have thought Bon religion and not Tibetan....if you have any pictures of non-Buddhist Mongolian phurbas that would be great.

spiral · 1st November 2006, 08:33 PM

I always though that Padmasambhava was credited with inventing the Phurba? around 750AD?

Thats what the Nepalis & Tibetans belive & teach.

Still after all these years that gets rather into belief rather than proof.

Spiral

Captain D · 1st November 2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Welcome Capt D,

Mongolian - hmmm.....if Central Asia I would have thought Bon religion and not Tibetan....if you have any pictures of non-Buddhist Mongolian phurbas that would be great.

Actually, Bon is the indigenous, pre-Buddhist religion of Tibet. Bon practitioners regard it as being a form of Buddhism that pre-dates Gautama Buddha by tens of millenia. It contains many elements of Central Asian shamanism, one of which is the ritual use of the phurba. I have never seen a Mongolian phurba, neither in person nor in a pic. My conjecture about the subject of this thread being Mongolian is just that: conjecture. However, given the reported extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, from Delhi, India to Japan, it could be from many places. The key, I think, is in identifying the typology of the non-iconographic carving which covers this unusual piece. Ideally, identifying the wood would be helpful as well. The Mongols adopted Tibetan Buddhism as an official religion many centuries ago. Unfortunately, the Mongolians suffered the same cultural deprivation at the hands of the Chinese that the Tibetans did, and much of the cultural material related to their religious beliefs was destroyed, so I imagine Mongolian phurba, especially wooden ones, to be rare indeed.

Captain D · 1st November 2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I always though that Padmasambhava was credited with inventing the Phurba? around 750AD?

Thats what the Nepalis & Tibetans belive & teach.

Still after all these years that gets rather into belief rather than proof.

Spiral

Padmasmbhava is credited in Tibetan Buddhism with discovering a phurba and the written precept for its use in a triangular stone receptacle, guarded by a scorpion, in a cave on the Tibetan side of the Himalayas during his passage from India to Tibet. That being the case, the phurba had already been in use for a long time before his arrival. He is said to have read the precept, and to have then perfected the existing phurba cult by integrating it into the Buddhist teachings he had brought with him from India. Today it is mainly used by monks of the Nyingmapa sect, as well as Bonpo.

katana · 1st November 2006, 10:25 PM

Hi Captain D,
I totally agree that the iconography is the key.....I have checked many websites in an effort to find matches....the Budhist icons on the 'blade' are fairly well known, it is the 'upper' half of the Phurba which is more unusual.....almost as if the iconography is more specific to the people from where this originated 9as you already summised) The 'crown' at the top is formed by 'plant leaves' or petals but do not seem to be the usual form of a lotus flower, a common icon. If Mongolia is a possibility then this plant crown could be significant...desserts usually have a small number of flowering plants that bloom in unusual conditions (high level of rainfall for instance), it would not be unreasonable to 'postulate' that such a plant would have 'iconic meaning' to them......much like the lotus to Budhists..... worth a try....google here I come........again

RSWORD · 1st November 2006, 10:55 PM

This thread might be of interest

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2153

Several similar elements as on your piece. While it was quite unusual, I always felt it had some genuine age and wear to it and felt it possible that it had native use and was not something necessarily strictly tourist.

Captain D · 2nd November 2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Captain D,
I totally agree that the iconography is the key.....I have checked many websites in an effort to find matches....the Budhist icons on the 'blade' are fairly well known, it is the 'upper' half of the Phurba which is more unusual.....almost as if the iconography is more specific to the people from where this originated 9as you already summised) The 'crown' at the top is formed by 'plant leaves' or petals but do not seem to be the usual form of a lotus flower, a common icon. If Mongolia is a possibility then this plant crown could be significant...desserts usually have a small number of flowering plants that bloom in unusual conditions (high level of rainfall for instance), it would not be unreasonable to 'postulate' that such a plant would have 'iconic meaning' to them......much like the lotus to Budhists..... worth a try....google here I come........again

Hi back, Katana,
Actually, I was refering to the non-iconographic elements of the carving as being a key to identifying this piece. The Buddhist symbolism is clear, the question is, what ethnic group is represented by the overall style of the way this piece was carved and of the other, ie. non-Buddhist carved decorations?

Emanuel · 2nd November 2006, 02:08 AM

Hi David,
Very interesting phur-pa. I've ignored these so far, but reading about them has kindled my curiosity..they're fascinating artefacts. I've found a very detailed article on them: The Phur-Pa, Tibetan Ritual Daggers (1975 Huntington, John C.)
Some of the images in the article are somewhat similar to your example. The lotus leaves, the lower triangular blad ena dthe deity head are clear, but the upper part is indeed strange. The deity heads are indicated as being Bon-po...here are the pics, I could send you the article if you wish...it's very large.
All the best,
Emanuel

Tim Simmons · 2nd November 2006, 07:17 AM

Good pictures! Looks like it is a Phurba. The pic on the right although smaller seems to tie up all the lose ends so to speak.

katana · 7th December 2006, 03:34 PM

Found this image...not very good quality (the picture) but shows a larger Phurba made of wood, more ornately carved but of similar size.

Emanuel · 7th December 2006, 07:50 PM

Hi David,

I saw an antique shop in Toronto that featured lots of phurpa and other Tibetan daggers. What struck me is that in most examples, the lotus petals were fully pierced from the cylindrical body of the dagger. In your piece, they are just rounded protrusions. It's a peculiar feature...I'll ask to take some pictures next time I pass by there. I also saw some fantastic examples carved from rock-crystal...quartz I guess.

All the best,
Emanuel

katana · 7th December 2006, 10:09 PM

Hi Emanuel,
thats very kind of you.... thanks

Regards David

M ELEY · 8th December 2006, 11:07 PM

Excellent discussion and information,guys! I've always been fascinated in these pieces and really thought at the beginning of this discussion that this was an African depiction of a phurbu (I was trying to think of any Buddhist influence or colonies on the African coast). Now I want to read up on the Bon. Thanks again!

22nd October 2006, 05:36 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Old Tibetan Phurba for comment or information Hi everybody... A Tibetan Phurba, old and large 75cms long many are only 25-30cms. Carved wood (wood is a scarce commodity in the region), very nice patina. Not a weapon in the accepted sense, but a 'Spiritual, weapon which maybe of interest..... ' The Shaman's ritual tool from Nepal.The Phurba, a ceremonial dagger, is a central ritual tool for all shamanic rituals-so central, in fact, that its use is rarely specified but simply presumed.While other objects of similar shape can be considered phurba, it is usually a "knife" with three distinct segments, one of which is a characteristic three sided blade or point. The segments and the triple blade represent the three spirit worlds, while the phurba as a whole symbolises the "world axis" binding all three worlds together.But it is more than a ritual object; during a healing it is the jhankari himself. During his trance, the jhankari transforms his spiritual body into a phurba and takes flight through the spirit world in this form.' Any info or comments would be most appreciated......thankyou Attached Images

22nd October 2006, 07:40 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Perhaps it is Tibetan The outlined part is very much like one of those thunder bolt things? and the fish could be buddist symbols. I still have doubts. If it is Tibetan from your pictures it does seem it may be fairly recent. Nearly ever antique I vist has something Tibetan/Chinese. The style is very much like other areas. Day light pics would help. Attached Images

23rd October 2006, 10:57 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Spiral....good call....you certainly seem to be in the right area I found two images of 'full sized' masks from that area....not identical to those on the 'phurba' but demonstrates similarities... On the picture below them I've indicated where it feels comfortable to hold (just feels right ..and 'rub marks' seem to confirm this) Feels more like a Phurba 'sword' or 'spear'...than dagger. Tim I will try and post daylight pics soon, (if the rain stops ) Very intriqued about this piece...cannot seem to find a similar sized one anywhere on the web..... Attached Images

1st November 2006, 04:41 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Welcome ... Welcome to the EAA Forum Captain D. I deleted your duplicate post when confirming your registration on the forum. If there was anything in your second message that is not in the first, please add it back. Ian Last edited by Ian; 1st November 2006 at 08:13 PM.

2nd November 2006, 02:08 AM	#25
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi David, Very interesting phur-pa. I've ignored these so far, but reading about them has kindled my curiosity..they're fascinating artefacts. I've found a very detailed article on them: The Phur-Pa, Tibetan Ritual Daggers (1975 Huntington, John C.) Some of the images in the article are somewhat similar to your example. The lotus leaves, the lower triangular blad ena dthe deity head are clear, but the upper part is indeed strange. The deity heads are indicated as being Bon-po...here are the pics, I could send you the article if you wish...it's very large. All the best, Emanuel Attached Images

22nd October 2006, 05:48 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hi David. Where did you get this? Who said it was Tibetan? I only ask as I do not think this is from anywhere near Asia.

22nd October 2006, 05:59 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The coloured cloth and light glare are making reading your picture quite difficult. Hard to get an idea of any patina. Can you take some day light pics on something a little more neutral. I am certain this is nothing to do with Tibet.

22nd October 2006, 07:36 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I am quite sure that it is not a Tibetan phurba, though wooden ones do exist. Could this be a Bon phurba or a piece from a different culture altogether?

22nd October 2006, 07:40 PM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I've several antique Tibetan purbu. None look anything like this. IMHO, the carving and design looks more African in origin. Rich

22nd October 2006, 07:45 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I do not think it is African. I will hold back untill we see some better pics but I am glad you think the same. The style of the fish and the overall decoration scream something else to me.

22nd October 2006, 09:45 PM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I agree this piece has several stylistic differences with Tibetan and Nepalese phurbas. The center section outlined does resemble the dorje, but I think only a resemblance. The faces on the sides look like African Dan masks. Quite a strange piece.

22nd October 2006, 10:12 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Its really strange....when I first viewed this I actually thought African....when I received it the fish carving seemed .Australasian...I've searched other examples of Tibetan Phurba and there were other examples of the fish carving. I am told that this was brought back from Tibet by the buyer....and is not a tourist item...

23rd October 2006, 10:59 AM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Looks full of classical Nepali {perhaps Tamang.} shamanic symbolism to me, Havent seen one that size before though. Almost looks like bottom half is standerd Phurba, & top half is whats unusual. Spiral

1st November 2006, 02:50 PM	#13
Captain D Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 6	At first I was skeptical about this actually being a phurba at all, mostly because of the style of carving which at first glance does look African in its execution. After closer consideration of the pics and doing some research into the vast extent of the phurba cult across Central Asia, I think it may very well be a phurba after all, but one far removed from Tibet, possibly Mongolian. It does display the essential morphological features that define a phurba, namely a three-sided blade and cylindrical handle. It also seems to feature stylized renditions of traditional phurba iconography: The makara head from whose mouth the blade projects, the dorje or vajra ("diamond thunderbolt") carving of the lower handle, and the three faces of the phurba deity. The rest is decorated in the local motifs of the region where it was crafted. What needs to be understood when viewing phurba is that despite being called "ceremonial daggers", phurba have their origins among the nomadic tribes of Central Asia as tent pegs. The word "phurba" means something like "to spike, or nail", having the connotation of pinning something to the ground. They are most commonly made of iron, though hardwood examples are by no means uncommon. Their use as a shamanic ritual weapon against demons predates the arrival of Buddhism in Tibet by 1000 years or more. Whatever the case, it's a very unique and curious artifact.

1st November 2006, 04:49 PM	#15
Captain D Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 6	Thanks for the welcome Ian. I only duplicated my posting because after 3 tries it wouldn't post. The one you posted for me is the original and contains everything I wanted to say.

1st November 2006, 05:16 PM	#17
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hello...welcome..and thankyou Captain D... I appreciate your efforts...I have had great difficulty in 'tying' this Phurba to a specific tribe or people. I have been 'googling' every search keyword I could think of and have not found a similar sized or decorated example. I even searched all the 'tourist/ gift ' type sellers/outlets from Asia in case this was made for 'those that like to travel'......but nothing. I am beginning to feel that this is, indeed, authentic (made for spiritual purposes...rather than 'decoration' and is of ethnic origin) and is something that I cannot help but 'pick up' everytime I pass it......I hope this is not an indication of the possible (evil ?? ) 'power' it may pocess

1st November 2006, 08:28 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Welcome Capt D, Mongolian - hmmm.....if Central Asia I would have thought Bon religion and not Tibetan....if you have any pictures of non-Buddhist Mongolian phurbas that would be great.

1st November 2006, 08:33 PM	#19
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I always though that Padmasambhava was credited with inventing the Phurba? around 750AD? Thats what the Nepalis & Tibetans belive & teach. Still after all these years that gets rather into belief rather than proof. Spiral

1st November 2006, 10:25 PM	#22
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Captain D, I totally agree that the iconography is the key.....I have checked many websites in an effort to find matches....the Budhist icons on the 'blade' are fairly well known, it is the 'upper' half of the Phurba which is more unusual.....almost as if the iconography is more specific to the people from where this originated 9as you already summised) The 'crown' at the top is formed by 'plant leaves' or petals but do not seem to be the usual form of a lotus flower, a common icon. If Mongolia is a possibility then this plant crown could be significant...desserts usually have a small number of flowering plants that bloom in unusual conditions (high level of rainfall for instance), it would not be unreasonable to 'postulate' that such a plant would have 'iconic meaning' to them......much like the lotus to Budhists..... worth a try....google here I come........again

1st November 2006, 10:55 PM	#23
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	This thread might be of interest http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2153 Several similar elements as on your piece. While it was quite unusual, I always felt it had some genuine age and wear to it and felt it possible that it had native use and was not something necessarily strictly tourist.

2nd November 2006, 07:17 AM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Good pictures! Looks like it is a Phurba. The pic on the right although smaller seems to tie up all the lose ends so to speak.

7th December 2006, 03:34 PM	#27
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Found this image...not very good quality (the picture) but shows a larger Phurba made of wood, more ornately carved but of similar size. Attached Images

7th December 2006, 07:50 PM	#28
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi David, I saw an antique shop in Toronto that featured lots of phurpa and other Tibetan daggers. What struck me is that in most examples, the lotus petals were fully pierced from the cylindrical body of the dagger. In your piece, they are just rounded protrusions. It's a peculiar feature...I'll ask to take some pictures next time I pass by there. I also saw some fantastic examples carved from rock-crystal...quartz I guess. All the best, Emanuel

7th December 2006, 10:09 PM	#29
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Emanuel, thats very kind of you.... thanks Regards David

8th December 2006, 11:07 PM	#30
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Excellent discussion and information,guys! I've always been fascinated in these pieces and really thought at the beginning of this discussion that this was an African depiction of a phurbu (I was trying to think of any Buddhist influence or colonies on the African coast). Now I want to read up on the Bon. Thanks again!