Jambiya plastic

[ericlaude]

I found in a lot of weapons that I bought, which I think this Jambiya old, but its handle is plastic, it is a gadget for tourist.
Someone can tell me more?
Thank you in advance

[Atlantia]

Wow, that's one unusual Khanjar!
Loving the blade! Have you tested for wootz?
Are you sure the hilt isn't just painted with some kind of bichumen?
Best
gene

[Stan S.]

Could it be old bikalite (form of early plastic) that was slightly corroded by something? The dagger looks genuinely old to me...

[ericlaude]

I can't see if it's a woots, I think no, the material of the handle can be an old used Kaketit.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ericlaude

I can't see if it's a woots, I think no, the material of the handle can be an old used Kaketit.

Whats a Kaketit?

It's a lovely thing. I've never seen a Khanjar with a blade like that!

Where's Stu!

[Sajen]

I think that both, Stan and Eric as well think/speak about bakelite, an early form of plastic used in the beginning of the last century. Good possible that the handle is from this material. I don't know something about this daggers/ khanjar but all parts look genuine to my eyes and the blade is beautiful. I would bet that it is not a tourist item!!

Regards,

Detlef

[ericlaude]

Sorry, Not Kakelit but Bakelit.

[Rick]

There could be something to the Bakelite idea; the material, if worn regularly in local areas, might well suffer ultraviolet damage of this sort .

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I think that both, Stan and Eric as well think/speak about bakelite, an early form of plastic used in the beginning of the last century. Good possible that the handle is from this material. I don't know something about this daggers/ khanjar but all parts look genuine to my eyes and the blade is beautiful. I would bet that it is not a tourist item!!

Regards,

Detlef

Hi every body
some time ago, I gave explains about kind of Bakelite (Ottoman)
- karaman
- faturan
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=karaman

about the blade, I've a khanjar, with the same blade
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=khanjar

anyway, this khanjar is old without any doubt, not a "bazar's dagger" for tourist, nice catch

à +

Dom

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi every body
some time ago, I gave explains about kind of Bakelite (Ottoman)
- karaman
- faturan
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=karaman

about the blade, I've a khanjar, with the same blade
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=khanjar

anyway, this khanjar is old without any doubt, not a "bazar's dagger" for tourist, nice catch

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

do you ever have seen such a worn bakelite handle?

Regards,

Detlef

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Dom,

do you ever have seen such a worn bakelite handle?

Regards,

Detlef

good evening Sajen
frankly, no
but I should not be surprise, if one day I find one
with the link about "Mark's Jambiya" when I saw the handle
it's was the first idea come to my spirit ==> Karhaman

à +

Dom

[ericlaude]

For more explications about this handle, when I burn it (slight) , it smell plastic.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by ericlaude

For more explications about this handle, when I burn it (slight) , it smell plastic.

no resin ??

à +

Dom

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Whats a Kaketit?

It's a lovely thing. I've never seen a Khanjar with a blade like that!

Where's Stu!

Here I am Don't forget we are 12 hours out with you people up north!
Definately NOT tourist IMHO. The scabbard looks Omani judging but the nice scroll work. Also there is gold thread there among the silver. Hilt could be plastic of some sort, or bakelite, or horn with some overfinish. No doubt Ibrahiim will have an opinion on this. Not modern (not 21st century junk)
very interesting blade. I have a Dharia with a multi fullered blade (pic attached)
Regards Stu

[Devadatta]

In Russia you can find old shashkas with bakelite handle grips, so the material was actually used. The khanjar is just great and definitely antique, not tourist

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ericlaude

I found in a lot of weapons that I bought, which I think this Jambiya old, but its handle is plastic, it is a gadget for tourist.
Someone can tell me more?
Thank you in advance

Salaams ericlaude ~

Thankyou for the excellent pictures of The Omani Khanjar..

1. The hilt could be a bakelite or plastic variant which looks like it has been burned or covered in pitch/perhaps the material that welds the blade in place... A resin.

2. The item looks original and is unusual for a few reasons notably;

a. The vertical grooves in the hilt above the cuff number 33. Reflected in the same number of verticals above the belt section (IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII) The 33 names of God in the short form. The number of prayer beads in a normal short string (the long form is 99)
b. The 3 ridge blade taking after the 3 ridge or 3 fuller sword blade called abu thalath musayil.. ? The one with the three...As for watered steel; Omani Khanjars don't have wootz blades....Not Omani Style.
c. The peculiar geometry on the scabbard reflected in the toe (Quba) may indicate an out of Oman Khanjar style possibly UAE.

This Omani made Khanjar poses a number of question and could be from the Shimaliyya (northern region) or the Sharqiyya(eastern region) or in fact made in Oman for the UAE market. Certainly it is not a tourist job.

I need to tout this question around a while before we can be sure.

Meanwhile please see The Omani Khanjar which is a growing resource on this specialised weapon. The Omani Khanjar

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ericlaude]

Thank you to all for your rich information, now its khanjar will go on my website.
One more time thank you.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by ericlaude

Thank you to all for your rich information, now its khanjar will go on my website.
One more time thank you.

Ericlaude

I hope you place it as a point of interest and not for sale?

Lew

[Lew]

Ericlaude

I checked your website and see that said khanjar is marked sold! It seems you only posted this piece to generate interest for the purpose of selling it on your website which is frowned upon here on the forum. So you have earned yourself a ten day ban. Let this be a warning to anyone who wants to play these types of games!

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ericlaude ~

Thankyou for the excellent pictures of The Omani Khanjar..

1. The hilt could be a bakelite or plastic variant which looks like it has been burned or covered in pitch/perhaps the material that welds the blade in place... A resin.

2. The item looks original and is unusual for a few reasons notably;

a. The vertical grooves in the hilt above the cuff number 33. Reflected in the same number of verticals above the belt section (IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII) The 33 names of God in the short form. The number of prayer beads in a normal short string (the long form is 99)
b. The 3 ridge blade taking after the 3 ridge or 3 fuller sword blade called abu thalath musayil.. ? The one with the three...As for watered steel; Omani Khanjars don't have wootz blades....Not Omani Style.
c. The peculiar geometry on the scabbard reflected in the toe (Quba) may indicate an out of Oman Khanjar style possibly UAE.

This Omani made Khanjar poses a number of question and could be from the Shimaliyya (northern region) or the Sharqiyya(eastern region) or in fact made in Oman for the UAE market. Certainly it is not a tourist job.

I need to tout this question around a while before we can be sure.

Meanwhile please see The Omani Khanjar which is a growing resource on this specialised weapon. The Omani Khanjar

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I have resurrected this thread as it would appear that the origin of this piece has not yet been decided.
Any further thoughts?
Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I have resurrected this thread as it would appear that the origin of this piece has not yet been decided.
Any further thoughts?
Regards Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ My view is that this is an Omani made Khanjar for the UAE market after which another blade has been placed possibly Indian... and the hilt has been burned in a fire or coated in a sort of burned grease effect... It would benefit from a replacement hilt and a straightening of the blade which perhaps is also loose and appears to have slipped into the hilt too far. Other upgrades would include a decent UAE belt and work knife etc after which the whole thing polished up would be pretty decent I would have thought.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Thanks for your comment Ibrahiim. So we definately have an Omani Khanjar.
I believe that Yemeni makers have had access to blade making machinery, and that blades of this sort were occasionly found on their work. So the possibility exists that this blade originated there.
As to putting new bits unnecessarily on older pieces, I think you by now must know my feeling about this. Great idea if thats what you deal in, but again it's creating something which is NOT original.
Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thanks for your comment Ibrahiim. So we definately have an Omani Khanjar.
I believe that Yemeni makers have had access to blade making machinery, and that blades of this sort were occasionly found on their work. So the possibility exists that this blade originated there.
As to putting new bits unnecessarily on older pieces, I think you by now must know my feeling about this. Great idea if thats what you deal in, but again it's creating something which is NOT original.
Regards Stu

Made in Oman for sure. For the UAE market / client. Could be an Indian or Yemeni replacement blade.
On replacement parts ~ By nature the Omani Khanjar is a multiple set of parts very often with replaced blades and occasionally hilts. Belts and add ons get replaced all the time. Upgrading Khanjars is what Omani men do all the time... Its part and parcel of the Khanjar situation and is normal proceedure. ... All Khanjar dealers in Oman have access to the vast range of spare parts we need to carry and most either have their own workshops like us or blister onto a local one for minor repairs and upgrades. It seems peculiar to the Khanjar, since, how many ethnographic daggers are there around with upwards of 10 separate parts?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Made in Oman for sure. For the UAE market / client. Could be an Indian or Yemeni replacement blade.
On replacement parts ~ By nature the Omani Khanjar is a multiple set of parts very often with replaced blades and occasionally hilts. Belts and add ons get replaced all the time. Upgrading Khanjars is what Omani men do all the time... Its part and parcel of the Khanjar situation and is normal proceedure. ... All Khanjar dealers in Oman have access to the vast range of spare parts we need to carry and most either have their own workshops like us or blister onto a local one for minor repairs and upgrades. It seems peculiar to the Khanjar, since, how many ethnographic daggers are there around with upwards of 10 separate parts?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, I believe that there is a big difference between what Omani men do within the acceptance of their own culture and what collectors of antique edged weapons are willing to do in regards to the weapons they collect from other cultures. The collection of antique weapons (well anything antique really) usually involves an interest in the preservation of the history of the piece collected. Therefore the collector isn't looking to create a pristine piece of their own accord (though finding a true antique in pristine condition is something of a "holy grail" for many). This is obviously not the case in regards to an Omani man who still uses the blade in question as part of their traditional garb. For him keeping the blade upgraded and pristine is a matter of pride for a weapon that is still in "service", so to speak.
Something similar can be found in the Indonesian keris BTW. There are many parts to the keris which are often upgraded within the tradition, such as sheaths, sheath parts (pendok), mendaks, hilts and even gonjos at times. Blades can also be traditionally upgraded with the application of gold to the blade (kinatah). In certain areas of Indonesia it is acceptable to reshape worn out edges. To some extent the keris collecting community, even many outside the culture, have embraced the idea of upgrading, though for me some go too far. As an outsider, i would never dream of adding kinatah to a blade, for instance. That is done as a matter of honor and reward within the culture. I will clean and restore sheaths, to a certain extent, replace a lost mendak or pendok and clean and stain a blade that is in need. I would even commission a new sheath for a blade that goes without, but would rather maintain or restore an original sheath if the blade has one already in good repair. What i do see happen at times in the keris community is dress upgrades that far exceed the quality and status of the blade itself. For me this is unacceptable, but it has become a common practice.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Ibrahiim, I believe that there is a big difference between what Omani men do within the acceptance of their own culture and what collectors of antique edged weapons are willing to do in regards to the weapons they collect from other cultures. The collection of antique weapons (well anything antique really) usually involves an interest in the preservation of the history of the piece collected. Therefore the collector isn't looking to create a pristine piece of their own accord (though finding a true antique in pristine condition is something of a "holy grail" for many). This is obviously not the case in regards to an Omani man who still uses the blade in question as part of their traditional garb. For him keeping the blade upgraded and pristine is a matter of pride for a weapon that is still in "service", so to speak.
Something similar can be found in the Indonesian keris BTW. There are many parts to the keris which are often upgraded within the tradition, such as sheaths, sheath parts (pendok), mendaks, hilts and even gonjos at times. Blades can also be traditionally upgraded with the application of gold to the blade (kinatah). In certain areas of Indonesia it is acceptable to reshape worn out edges. To some extent the keris collecting community, even many outside the culture, have embraced the idea of upgrading, though for me some go too far. As an outsider, i would never dream of adding kinatah to a blade, for instance. That is done as a matter of honor and reward within the culture. I will clean and restore sheaths, to a certain extent, replace a lost mendak or pendok and clean and stain a blade that is in need. I would even commission a new sheath for a blade that goes without, but would rather maintain or restore an original sheath if the blade has one already in good repair. What i do see happen at times in the keris community is dress upgrades that far exceed the quality and status of the blade itself. For me this is unacceptable, but it has become a common practice.

Thank you David for this. I think that you have hit the nail on the head, and I hope that others here accept that as collectors, we seek ORIGINALITY and not some recently embelished alteration to an item, which may, in less honest hands become a fraudulent mis-representation.
Regards Stuart

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thank you David for this. I think that you have hit the nail on the head, and I hope that others here accept that as collectors, we seek ORIGINALITY and not some recently embelished alteration to an item, which may, in less honest hands become a fraudulent mis-representation.
Regards Stuart

Thanks Stuart, but i also hope that you can see that this issue cuts (yes, pun intended ) both ways. In the end i believe that it all depends upon the culture in which you operate and what your intentions for the blade will be. If your are operating within a culture where the tradition calls for upgrades and your intention is to use that blade for your own cultural purposes (as part of tradition wear or practice), then it seems perfectly legitimate to me to make appropriate upgrades. If, however, you are upgrading blades in order to create more pristine objects for sale to a collecting community, well, i think that is another story.
I suppose that in the end the old adage, caveat emptor, applies. If a particular blade form is of interest to you it is probably best to learn to recognize as best one can what an upgrade looks like. In the keris world we are often presented with newly dressed blades and it is completely acceptable. We understand that old blades most often out live wooden scabbards and also hilts. We also learn to recognize what a fairly original ensemble looks like. Sometimes we do struggle with knowing just how much the keris may have been upgraded. Have new features been carved? Has gold kinatah been added? Most times you can tell. Sometimes you cannot and simply have to decide if you like the keris enough to not care if it has been upgraded solely for resale purposes.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams David ~ Excellent summary thank you.

The essence of the debate is in the understanding of the living breathing life of an in use ethnographic weapon whereas in some cultures there are many pieces that are dead ( though very collectible they fell from use a long time ago); In this part of the world Oman, Yemen, Saudia and other countries in Arabia they are very much alive, thus, the obvious on going upgrades and embelishments which occur are entirely correct and reasonable. In Oman etc there is, in addition, a demand for absolutely brand new khanjars and they in turn will become respected antiques in the future. The analogy is ~ why sit on an old chair when you can have a new one? Although simple, that is in effect, the mindset of some clients (usually VIP) that insist on the new weapon. It has always been like that. Therein is the reason that workshops today resemble almost exactly workshops of old; using traditional methods and the old tools.

In fact; there is a royal decree protecting the style of Omani Khanjars so that no craftsmen are allowed to add a non original design thus preserving the traditional style. Interestingly only one Khanjar / Omani Jewellery maker ever signed his work (the master of Sulaif). Though at the time he did not realise it ... this was a form of early copyright but now it is to be formalised.

It may come as a surprise that the commission on copyright for Oman has decided that from the not too distant future any item made here must be stamped. Whilst that is a hundred years too late (in many cases) it will in future give an official benchmark datestamp for the classic weapons of Oman.

In respect of the original substance at thread; You will see from my previous post that given the Khanjar in question I would advise retaining the out of area blade but consider a replacement to the handle that appears to be plastic and damaged by fire. My thought would be to add a matching geometric pattern UAE style of belt to enhance the originality of the weapon making it wearable and to give it a general spruce and polish up.

It is similar advice I give many times to clients walking in with damaged Khanjars.. Shukran

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Thanks again David and Ibrahiim.
It was certainly not my intention to disregard the Cultural aspect of what Ibrahiim says. I am well aware that in different cultures, this is paramount, but what I am refering to is the item in respect of the collector, where originality is what is sought in a piece. '
Regards Stuart