Cold Steel Naval Dirk: Origin of Design?

Atlantia · 13th October 2010, 07:12 PM

I was looking at a Naval Dirk today, rather beautiful TBH. Was sorely tempted but couldn't place the pattern. Anyway, a search reveals that it is very close to the one below, made by Cold Steel. Couldn't see any makers marks or stamps on it, and if it's a modern piece, its been aged. Anyone know if these reproductions are stamped, and if they are in fact based on an original pattern, or just loosely based on the British.

kronckew · 13th October 2010, 07:23 PM

early dirk: came in a variety of styles.

don't think cold steel ones are stamped, tho someone could etch or stamp afterwards.

the photo of the other side is also unstamped.

more standardised victorian dirks looked like this one, 1891 pattern. widely reproduced - may even still be in production. earlier one looked a lot like this (1879 pattern is nearly identical)

Atlantia · 13th October 2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

early dirk: came in a variety of styles.

don't think cold steel ones are stamped, tho someone could etch or stamp afterwards.

more standardised victorian dirks looked like this one, 1891 pattern. widely reproduced - may even still be in production.

Hi Mate,
This one definately looks like the Cold Steel one. Wondered how to be sure its not a modern one aged up is all. No stamps of any kind on it that I could see. definately dark horn grips, never wire bound.
Hmmmm.
Not somewhere where I could really take pictures.

Dmitry · 13th October 2010, 07:51 PM

This what the dirk on the first photo is based upon, a popular form from the mid-1790s to ca.1810.
Sometimes there is 'cigar band' around the waist of the grip, which is engraved with a fouled anchor, which, understandably, adds a factor of desirability to collectors.
Both pieces are in my collection.

Atlantia · 13th October 2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

This what the dirk on the first photo is based upon, a popular form from the mid-1790s to ca.1810.
Sometimes there is 'cigar band' around the waist of the grip, which is engraved with a fouled anchor, which, understandably, adds a factor of desirability to collectors.
Both pieces are in my collection.

Thats a beauty Dmitry! (5 Ball to match the sword?)
Any with smooth horn grips that you know of?

Norman McCormick · 13th October 2010, 08:09 PM

Seems quite a generic style, here's a couple of Russian dirks separated by more than a century.
Regards,
Norman.

Dmitry · 13th October 2010, 08:47 PM

The two dirks that Norman has posted are -
1.Soviet Model 1944 officer's dirk
and its predecessor.,
2.Russian Imperial Model 1803 naval officer's dirk.
The latter one was a regulation pattern, based on the period British examples, and similar to the one I posted above.
Funny enough, there was no regulation pattern British naval dirks until 1856, but other countries copied the popular British designs from the earlier times, and made them Pattern long before the Royal Navy got to pattern theirs.

Dmitry · 13th October 2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thats a beauty Dmitry! (5 Ball to match the sword?)
Any with smooth horn grips that you know of?

Not horn, but ebony. Horn wasn't used much, if at all, by the English,for grips on their swords and dirks, at least during the Napoleonic period.
As a matter of fact, ebony-gripped dirks are rarer than the bone/ivory ones.

Atlantia · 13th October 2010, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Not horn, but ebony. Horn wasn't used much, if at all, by the English,for grips on their swords and dirks, at least during the Napoleonic period.
As a matter of fact, ebony-gripped dirks are rarer than the bone/ivory ones.

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks for the help. Thats the thing, this definately had horn grips.
Hmmm.

Atlantia · 13th October 2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Seems quite a generic style, here's a couple of Russian dirks separated by more than a century.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
No markings on this one.... at all. But thats the general shape. They yours?

Dmitry · 13th October 2010, 10:51 PM

Take a picture, if you can. We'll see what you got. I love looking at the old dirks.

Atlantia · 13th October 2010, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Take a picture, if you can. We'll see what you got. I love looking at the old dirks.

Its not mine, I saw it today (a dealer) didn't have a camera and don't think he'd have been agreeable to me taking pictures anyway.
I'll try and gop back (now armed with more of an idea) and have another look in a few days.

Norman McCormick · 13th October 2010, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Norman,
No markings on this one.... at all. But thats the general shape. They yours?

Hi Gene,
Unfortunately not.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 16th October 2010, 09:11 PM

Well I checked it today and compared it to the cold-steel dirk.
It is one, for sure.
Dirtied and deliberately aged.
Looked good too!

Dmitry · 18th October 2010, 05:20 AM

Well, if that's the case I'm glad you didn't buy it! We've all seen this type of thing,aging the repros, quite a bit in the recent years. Most of the time these are quite obvious, but they are getting better every year.
Nevertheless, there are still many good period examples of naval dirks out there, especially in the UK.

kronckew · 18th October 2010, 08:02 AM

well, sunday they played the gregory peck version of the horatio hornblower movie.

i paid particular attention to the midshipman who had a dirk very much like the ivory handled examples above. the costuming in general was fairly accurate, except for the officers carrying the same style brass gripped smallswords into battle when they boarded the spanish ship of the line. even the spanish captain. i would have expected hangers...the officers even had slightly different colour uniforms and facings which would have been fairly accurate given fading, salt spray exposure and tailoring variations in natural dyed cloth.

the men even carried the correct straight bladed spectacle guarded cutlass pattern they pulled off racks. the middie carried the dirk on a broad black leather baldric that let it hang at an angle on his left hip, baldric decorated with a gold anchor and another device i couldn't quite make out, may have been a lion face, just below it.

the movie officers carried their swords inserted into a white frog which engaged a brass stud on the scabbard. didn't look like the sword belt i used in the military which was the std. black leather brass buckled and fitted belt with two carry straps for the two rings on a naval sword scabbard (and a hook to hang it on while walking rather than on horse). the brits i thought used a very similar sword belt.

i wonder how much research into accuracy they do for big budget films like that. i'd guess the officer's sword were chosen more for the flashy errol flynn style boarding duels than accuracy tho.

M ELEY · 19th October 2010, 10:55 AM

To date, the most impressive and accurate depiction of naval weapons for me was in 'Master and Commander'. From the classic British boarding axes and m1803 boarding cutlasses being rolled out onto the deck in a barrel to the officer's swords mounted in the Captain's cabin to the French flintlock pistols. In one scene, Russel Crowe gets stabbed in the side by a naval dirk...one of my favorite movies!

Atlantia · 19th October 2010, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Well, if that's the case I'm glad you didn't buy it! We've all seen this type of thing,aging the repros, quite a bit in the recent years. Most of the time these are quite obvious, but they are getting better every year.
Nevertheless, there are still many good period examples of naval dirks out there, especially in the UK.

Thank you Dmitry

The unsettling thing about this repro is that there are no makers marks and given the right treatment, the brass mounts, horn hilt and non stainless blade can suddenly look like an obscure dirk of genuine age and good quality.
The scabbard is a little 'thick' with its wood liner, but with the right signs of age and use everywhere else, its easy to overlook that!
I just want to bring this to everyones attention.
I don't think for a second that it would have fooled an experienced Dirk collector like yourself, but someone like me who sees what seems to be a nice old dirk and thinks it could be the start of a dirk collection, could get caught and lose a good amount of money.
After all, the item in question is essentially a modern knife in 'well used' condition (at best) so its value is in reality now very little.

As a rider on this, I'd like to add that the chap selling it I GENUINELY believe doesn't know its a fake.
I've now bought two nice genuine items from him and he has many more.
I intend to tell him (or point him in the right direction to see for himself) next time I see him, as I hope he'll want to know.

Best
Gene

13th October 2010, 07:12 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Cold Steel Naval Dirk: Origin of Design? I was looking at a Naval Dirk today, rather beautiful TBH. Was sorely tempted but couldn't place the pattern. Anyway, a search reveals that it is very close to the one below, made by Cold Steel. Couldn't see any makers marks or stamps on it, and if it's a modern piece, its been aged. Anyone know if these reproductions are stamped, and if they are in fact based on an original pattern, or just loosely based on the British.

13th October 2010, 07:23 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	early dirk: came in a variety of styles. don't think cold steel ones are stamped, tho someone could etch or stamp afterwards. the photo of the other side is also unstamped. more standardised victorian dirks looked like this one, 1891 pattern. widely reproduced - may even still be in production. earlier one looked a lot like this (1879 pattern is nearly identical) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 13th October 2010 at 07:54 PM.

13th October 2010, 07:51 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	This what the dirk on the first photo is based upon, a popular form from the mid-1790s to ca.1810. Sometimes there is 'cigar band' around the waist of the grip, which is engraved with a fouled anchor, which, understandably, adds a factor of desirability to collectors. Both pieces are in my collection. Attached Images

13th October 2010, 08:09 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Seems quite a generic style, here's a couple of Russian dirks separated by more than a century. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

13th October 2010, 08:47 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The two dirks that Norman has posted are - 1.Soviet Model 1944 officer's dirk and its predecessor., 2.Russian Imperial Model 1803 naval officer's dirk. The latter one was a regulation pattern, based on the period British examples, and similar to the one I posted above. Funny enough, there was no regulation pattern British naval dirks until 1856, but other countries copied the popular British designs from the earlier times, and made them Pattern long before the Royal Navy got to pattern theirs.

13th October 2010, 10:51 PM	#11
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Take a picture, if you can. We'll see what you got. I love looking at the old dirks.

16th October 2010, 09:11 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well I checked it today and compared it to the cold-steel dirk. It is one, for sure. Dirtied and deliberately aged. Looked good too!

18th October 2010, 05:20 AM	#15
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Well, if that's the case I'm glad you didn't buy it! We've all seen this type of thing,aging the repros, quite a bit in the recent years. Most of the time these are quite obvious, but they are getting better every year. Nevertheless, there are still many good period examples of naval dirks out there, especially in the UK.

18th October 2010, 08:02 AM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	well, sunday they played the gregory peck version of the horatio hornblower movie. i paid particular attention to the midshipman who had a dirk very much like the ivory handled examples above. the costuming in general was fairly accurate, except for the officers carrying the same style brass gripped smallswords into battle when they boarded the spanish ship of the line. even the spanish captain. i would have expected hangers...the officers even had slightly different colour uniforms and facings which would have been fairly accurate given fading, salt spray exposure and tailoring variations in natural dyed cloth. the men even carried the correct straight bladed spectacle guarded cutlass pattern they pulled off racks. the middie carried the dirk on a broad black leather baldric that let it hang at an angle on his left hip, baldric decorated with a gold anchor and another device i couldn't quite make out, may have been a lion face, just below it. the movie officers carried their swords inserted into a white frog which engaged a brass stud on the scabbard. didn't look like the sword belt i used in the military which was the std. black leather brass buckled and fitted belt with two carry straps for the two rings on a naval sword scabbard (and a hook to hang it on while walking rather than on horse). the brits i thought used a very similar sword belt. i wonder how much research into accuracy they do for big budget films like that. i'd guess the officer's sword were chosen more for the flashy errol flynn style boarding duels than accuracy tho.

19th October 2010, 10:55 AM	#17
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	To date, the most impressive and accurate depiction of naval weapons for me was in 'Master and Commander'. From the classic British boarding axes and m1803 boarding cutlasses being rolled out onto the deck in a barrel to the officer's swords mounted in the Captain's cabin to the French flintlock pistols. In one scene, Russel Crowe gets stabbed in the side by a naval dirk...one of my favorite movies!