A kind os East India Brown bess with Elephant mark

Cerjak · 12th January 2013, 01:43 PM

I Just receive this gun who is look like a Brown bess but smaller ( 132 cm) and caliber 17mm on the barrel an elephant is engraved.
crown and Tower mark on the lock.
any comment on it will be welcome
Regards

Cerjak

Berkley · 12th January 2013, 02:07 PM

The design on the barrel bears some semblance to a coin of Tipu Sultan. Can you post a close up photo of the lock, please?

Cerjak · 12th January 2013, 02:28 PM

more pics

Cerjak · 12th January 2013, 02:35 PM

last one

PClemente · 12th January 2013, 05:52 PM

Hi,
Interesting piece you have there. Initially thinking an early 19th century trade gun and some research leads me to believe it belonged to the "Company of Merchants Trading to Africa". The company used the elephant with castle mark to show ownership of its guns, and was heavily involved in the African slave trade. The original company, called the Royal African Company, was founded in the late 1600's. To quote a response in regards to a similar musket in a post several years ago, " This company had a monopoly in the slave trade, but eventually succumbed to the free trade movement which saw the charter of the Company of Merchants Trading to Africa in 1750. The new company, composed of nearly 400 Liverpool, London, and Bristol merchants, and taking advantage of tribal wars, supplied muskets to local kings and paramount rulers upon whom the slavers depended on the flow of slaves from the inner continent to the trading forts established in Gambia and Senegal. The company, along with some other chartered companies, continued its activity in the slave trade and expanded into the trade for gold and ivory as well as slaves. As mentioned previously, muskets, gunpowder and lead were furnished to powerful local rulers in exchange for slaves, but were also used to arm local white or native contingents around the company forts. Textiles, purchased by the company from the HEI company were also used as trade goods. The Company of Merchants trading to Africa ended its operations in the slave trade in 1821.

Depending on the style of the musket in question, it could have been made between 1750 and 1821. The majority seem to have been quite cheaply made, but were patterned after the government's Brown Bess, though not of sufficeint quality to pass inspection for government service. Calibres were nominally .68 to .70, similar to fusils made for the Army. In fact, Galton, who supplied huge numbers of trade muskets for the company, produced muskets and fusils for the British Army."
Hope this leads you in the right direction!

Cerjak · 12th January 2013, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PClemente

Hi,
Interesting piece you have there. Initially thinking an early 19th century trade gun and some research leads me to believe it belonged to the "Company of Merchants Trading to Africa". The company used the elephant with castle mark to show ownership of its guns, and was heavily involved in the African slave trade. The original company, called the Royal African Company, was founded in the late 1600's. To quote a response in regards to a similar musket in a post several years ago, " This company had a monopoly in the slave trade, but eventually succumbed to the free trade movement which saw the charter of the Company of Merchants Trading to Africa in 1750. The new company, composed of nearly 400 Liverpool, London, and Bristol merchants, and taking advantage of tribal wars, supplied muskets to local kings and paramount rulers upon whom the slavers depended on the flow of slaves from the inner continent to the trading forts established in Gambia and Senegal. The company, along with some other chartered companies, continued its activity in the slave trade and expanded into the trade for gold and ivory as well as slaves. As mentioned previously, muskets, gunpowder and lead were furnished to powerful local rulers in exchange for slaves, but were also used to arm local white or native contingents around the company forts. Textiles, purchased by the company from the HEI company were also used as trade goods. The Company of Merchants trading to Africa ended its operations in the slave trade in 1821.

Depending on the style of the musket in question, it could have been made between 1750 and 1821. The majority seem to have been quite cheaply made, but were patterned after the government's Brown Bess, though not of sufficeint quality to pass inspection for government service. Calibres were nominally .68 to .70, similar to fusils made for the Army. In fact, Galton, who supplied huge numbers of trade muskets for the company, produced muskets and fusils for the British Army."
Hope this leads you in the right direction!

Hi Clemente

Many thanks ! Yours explanations are very good & exact !
With your help and using "Company of Merchants Trading to Africa". for my google research I just found exactly the same example ( See the following pictures from http://www.brlsi.org/museum-collecti...eaponry/17523#
"The round iron barrel (93.5cm) has Birmingham proof marks and the top of the breech engraved with the emblem of the Royal African Company. The wooden full stock has brass furniture, and the flintlock mechanism has superfluous Ordnance markings consisting of a Crown and the word "Tower". The makers initials C.W.J. are stamped beneath the pan. Overall length 133cm"
"This flintlock musket is typical of thousands produced in Birmingham during the 18th and 19th centuries for export throughout the British Empire. The Royal African Company, established in the late 17th century, supplied muskets in payment for slaves. Later, the African Company of Merchants continued this trade and by 1775 the price for a slave had risen to at least two muskets. Manufacture of trade muskets continued long after the Abolition of Slavery in 1833"

Kind regards

Cerjak

Cerjak · 13th January 2013, 11:46 AM

In the hiden side from the lock The makers initials C.W.J Charles W. James
and a B for Birmingham.

Fernando K · 14th January 2013, 07:32 PM

Hola, Cerjak

La contra-platina (side-plate) fijada con un tornillo de madera, comenzó a usarse en el modelo New Land, en 1802.
El arco con la palabra TOWER está invertido
La corona no se alcanza a ver bien, lo mismo que los punzones del Banco de Pruebas. La corona no tiene cifra real (GR, en este caso).

Aquí en Argentina se encuentran copias del Brown Bess, producidas en Belgica, con la palabra TOWER, la cifra real (GR) y hasta una imitación de la flecha ancha ("broad arrow") que indicaba propiedad real. Te adjunto una fotografía, en este caso de percusión.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Fernando K · 14th January 2013, 07:34 PM

Hello, Cerjak

The counter-plate fixed with a wood screw, was introduced in the model New Land, in 1802.
The arch with the word TOWER is inverted.
The crown is not well visible, same as the proof mark punctions. The crown has no Royal chypher (GR, in this case).

Here in Argentina there are copies of the Brown Bess, produced in Belgium, with the word TOWER, the actual cypher (GR) and even an imitation of the "Broad Arrow", indicating Royal property. I enclose a picture, in this case of percussion.

Affectionately. Fernando K

12th January 2013, 01:43 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	A kind os East India Brown bess with Elephant mark I Just receive this gun who is look like a Brown bess but smaller ( 132 cm) and caliber 17mm on the barrel an elephant is engraved. crown and Tower mark on the lock. any comment on it will be welcome Regards Cerjak Attached Images

12th January 2013, 02:07 PM	#2
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The design on the barrel bears some semblance to a coin of Tipu Sultan. Can you post a close up photo of the lock, please? Attached Images Last edited by Berkley; 12th January 2013 at 02:35 PM.

12th January 2013, 02:28 PM	#3
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	more pics more pics Attached Images

12th January 2013, 02:35 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	last one last one Attached Images

13th January 2013, 11:46 AM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	lock initial from the gunmakers In the hiden side from the lock The makers initials C.W.J Charles W. James and a B for Birmingham. Attached Images

12th January 2013, 05:52 PM	#5
PClemente Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 42	Hi, Interesting piece you have there. Initially thinking an early 19th century trade gun and some research leads me to believe it belonged to the "Company of Merchants Trading to Africa". The company used the elephant with castle mark to show ownership of its guns, and was heavily involved in the African slave trade. The original company, called the Royal African Company, was founded in the late 1600's. To quote a response in regards to a similar musket in a post several years ago, " This company had a monopoly in the slave trade, but eventually succumbed to the free trade movement which saw the charter of the Company of Merchants Trading to Africa in 1750. The new company, composed of nearly 400 Liverpool, London, and Bristol merchants, and taking advantage of tribal wars, supplied muskets to local kings and paramount rulers upon whom the slavers depended on the flow of slaves from the inner continent to the trading forts established in Gambia and Senegal. The company, along with some other chartered companies, continued its activity in the slave trade and expanded into the trade for gold and ivory as well as slaves. As mentioned previously, muskets, gunpowder and lead were furnished to powerful local rulers in exchange for slaves, but were also used to arm local white or native contingents around the company forts. Textiles, purchased by the company from the HEI company were also used as trade goods. The Company of Merchants trading to Africa ended its operations in the slave trade in 1821. Depending on the style of the musket in question, it could have been made between 1750 and 1821. The majority seem to have been quite cheaply made, but were patterned after the government's Brown Bess, though not of sufficeint quality to pass inspection for government service. Calibres were nominally .68 to .70, similar to fusils made for the Army. In fact, Galton, who supplied huge numbers of trade muskets for the company, produced muskets and fusils for the British Army." Hope this leads you in the right direction!

14th January 2013, 07:32 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hola, Cerjak La contra-platina (side-plate) fijada con un tornillo de madera, comenzó a usarse en el modelo New Land, en 1802. El arco con la palabra TOWER está invertido La corona no se alcanza a ver bien, lo mismo que los punzones del Banco de Pruebas. La corona no tiene cifra real (GR, en este caso). Aquí en Argentina se encuentran copias del Brown Bess, producidas en Belgica, con la palabra TOWER, la cifra real (GR) y hasta una imitación de la flecha ancha ("broad arrow") que indicaba propiedad real. Te adjunto una fotografía, en este caso de percusión. Afectuosamente. Fernando K

14th January 2013, 07:34 PM	#9
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello, Cerjak The counter-plate fixed with a wood screw, was introduced in the model New Land, in 1802. The arch with the word TOWER is inverted. The crown is not well visible, same as the proof mark punctions. The crown has no Royal chypher (GR, in this case). Here in Argentina there are copies of the Brown Bess, produced in Belgium, with the word TOWER, the actual cypher (GR) and even an imitation of the "Broad Arrow", indicating Royal property. I enclose a picture, in this case of percussion. Affectionately. Fernando K Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 14th January 2013 at 10:12 PM.