Unsusual hilt

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 02:44 PM

A collector friend just received this hilt from ivory. Since we both have never seen a hilt like this he asked me if I can post it here to get maybe some more informations about.
Every comment are welcome.

Marcokeris · 1st January 2010, 03:58 PM

Beautiful hit

IMO: Very rare to find . I don't have this hit... and is one of my target everytime i'm in Indonesia.
A similar hit is in the book "Hulu keris" in which the author said it comes from
Yogya ...or Solo area (I don't remember well)
Congraturation

Alam Shah · 1st January 2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

.. A similar hit is in the book "Hulu keris" in which the author said it comes from Yogya ...or Solo area (I don't remember well)..

According to "Hulu Keris", it is said to be a Surakarta abstract piece, a cat devoured by a snake.. but in this case, it looks more like a puppy or a lamb..

What is the significance of the depiction? What does it symbolise?

David · 1st January 2010, 08:16 PM

hmmm...i wonder about the age of this piece. I wonder if this isn't a contemporary artists interpretation of a rare older hilt which has then been treated to appear old. I am not familiar with the hilt in Hulu Keris. How old is that one said to be? It should be kept in mind that modern carvers are quite capable of reproducing rare old hilt styles and then presenting them as old with a bit of artificial aging and staining. Is it then a "rare" hilt or merely a copy of one?

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm...i wonder about the age of this piece. I wonder if this isn't a contemporary artists interpretation of a rare older hilt which has then been treated to appear old. I am not familiar with the hilt in Hulu Keris. How old is that one said to be? It should be kept in mind that modern carvers are quite capable of reproducing rare old hilt styles and then presenting them as old with a bit of artificial aging and staining. Is it then a "rare" hilt or merely a copy of one?

Hi David,
I just send a mail to my friend where I asked him if he have informations about the history of this hilt.

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

According to "Hulu Keris", it is said to be a Surakarta abstract piece, a cat devoured by a snake.. but in this case, it looks more like a puppy or a lamb..

What is the significance of the depiction? What does it symbolise?

Thank you Alam. This is what we want to know also. The hilt in "Hulu Keris" we know also but unfortunately there is no further background.

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 10:49 PM

The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

BluErf · 2nd January 2010, 02:37 AM

Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful.

guwaya · 2nd January 2010, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

A common story - and: "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts.

I aggree with BluErf:
"Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful."

guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2010, 04:25 AM

In respect of the age of this hilt, I find that a digital photograph viewed on a PC screen is in no way adequate for me to form an opinion.

It may be relatively old, it may be relatively new. I have no opinion at this time.

Guwaya

Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued.

If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Naga Sasra · 2nd January 2010, 01:49 PM

Guwaya

I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following.

Is there any published book on Hulu Keris you would consider the foremost reference material available on the subject

I am eager to continue the learning process, and look forward to your answer.

Thank you,
Erik

Sajen · 2nd January 2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful.

The direct source my friend don't want to disclose. It coming from a german collector who assemble his small collection in the 60ties and 70ties of the last century in Indonesia and the Netherlands. This collector haven't had a well known name international.
I asked my friend for some additional pictures of the hilt. I haven't handled the hilt byself but my friend told me that it is to seen that this hilt have been mounted for a longer time on a keris, this signs are visible. But he is unsure if it is an antique hilt.

guwaya · 3rd January 2010, 03:31 AM

Guwaya

Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued.

If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book?

[/QUOTE]

Naga Sasra:

I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following.

Alan G. Maisey & Naga Sasra:

I don't think that this is the right place to start a discussion about reference literature - on the other hand this is the second time in a short while somebody is searching for informations for a friend or a friend of a friend who is searching for answers but finally does not want to open his source - so it might be ok. once.

I am not a teacher and I also don't want to be one. Finally everybody has to decide himselve what he views as a reference-book. Me for myself I adjust a certain demand to a book handled as a reference work. A reference book should contain useful facts, it should be a book you can refer for authoritative facts. It should be a book of facts which you look at to discover particular information and its cause is that the information is quickly found if needed. (For more please google).

Under this aspect I cannot accept HULU KERIS as a reference book because of the lack of information. The lack that there isn't any book else is no criterion to take whatever is as a reference book. For me HULU KERIS is just an introductional overview of some ragam-ragam hulu keris to give an impression how many different forms there are and to which region they might be attributed to.

The book from Zonnefeld about the Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago might be a a sample of how a reference book should look like although I am missing here the direct hints at every article to the sources of the information. But its a way a reference book about hilts could be done.

Another good example for good research and serious information but limited to the Malayan Peninsular is the part of the hilts in "SPIRIT OF WOOD".

Unfortunately a book about keris hilts covering the whole indonesian archipelago I also don't know - it would be an interesting challange for a serious field research but means investing a lot of money and time.

So we are in the actual situation that people searching for special informations have to do a lot of work themselves and with the risk not to receive what they are looking for - but this is what the engagement into the keris involves. You cannot just open a book or ask the forum and get the information, you have to invest energy - one's own initiative is requested.

Sooner or later hopefully somebody will do such above described serious and scientifically based researches and then possibly the result will be a reference book about keris hilts over the whole indonesian archipelago. At the present situation I don't see a global work or reference book about keris hilts.

Finally, back to the HULU KERIS book, I would like to come to an end with a request to Alan G. Maisey and Naga Sasra.

If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer?

guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2010, 04:54 AM

Thank you very much Guwaya for your clarification of terminology.

I much appreciate this revelation of your personal approach to the study of the keris.

I agree with you in that "Hulu Keris" would fail miserably by any academic standards for acceptance as a reference work, and the same is true of the bulk of the body of literature that relates to the keris.

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly that "Hulu Keris", together with all other literature relating to keris fails to provide well researched and referenced information, however, speaking only for myself, I find this lack of perfectly structured, academically referenced information to be part of the fascination of the study of the keris, as it permits us to carry out our own research and form our own opinions, and all this research and the attendant opinion adds to the body of knowledge relating to the keris.

The ongoing discussion of keris literature as it relates to the various topics raised for discussion here, forms an integral part of our discussion, and our joint learning process, thus it is appropriate, in my opinion, to discuss literature and reference sources relating to any matter under discussion.

In fact, some of the most valuable research and opinion to come forth in recent years has been produced by people who have no special relationship with, nor interest in, the keris.

Guwaya, you have raised the question:-

If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer?

Again, speaking only for myself, at the age of 16 or 17 --- which is when I would have been collecting for 5 years or so --- had I been fortunate enough to be in that Solo position, I would probably have been jubilant to have received such a revealing and perceptive answer. If ten years later I had been so stupid as to have even asked such a question, well, I would probably have been stupid enough to be satisfied with the answer then, also.

Moshah · 4th January 2010, 12:40 AM

Hi guys.

We have to admit that it is really hard to find a really good reference book in the world of keris. But then again our perception of "reference" are actually evolves together with knowledge and experience.

For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point, even though very little details are enclosed in the picture's caption. On the other hand, for someone who has handled thousands of hilts and know better, these kind of books are not as informative as once when he started collecting years ago.

For me, even though not all books are painstakingly informative, seeing hundreds of high-res quality pictures enclosed, together with close up / macro pixs, is like going for a stroll in a keris museum at your own pace. And you can keep coming back any time you wish so.

guwaya · 4th January 2010, 02:39 AM

"For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."[/QUOTE]

Moshah

But then you go the risk that beginners easily overtake wrong informations or attributions. The danger is to become attracted by the new wonderful presented picture books and to loose the critical eye for what is written as it is so easy .......... .

Especially for beginners I take the oposite position: NOT "any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."

Moshah · 4th January 2010, 02:57 AM

Guwaya,

Indeed it is a point that beginners can easily misunderstood and accepted that all the info in any keris book are true and evidence-based.

Most beginners actually are buying stories from people in the keris trade, in their humble beginning. While not all people in the keris trade are that bad, but sadly this always happen. Anyway, by the time they are buying their 3rd keris onwards, these beginners actually has developed their own sense of learning. And those stories of might and magic are not of any relevance to them anymore.

Same goes with book. There are numbers of keris books where the info are for entry level enthusiasts and contains many error (need further editing), but the fact is, it still sells.

How much terror that we scared to befall upon new generation in order for them to learn their way up in the keris collecting world, it is actually a learning process, which is vital. The harder they fall, the harder they remember.

Somehow, I feel that learning something in the hard way is always the best way...

Marcokeris · 4th January 2010, 05:22 PM

IMO mr. Jensen's Krisdisk is the best work i have seen till today about keris hits

Naga Sasra · 4th January 2010, 08:57 PM

Guwaya
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to the question from me, it helped me better understand the reasoning behind your opinion.
I do however; have a few comments regarding the matter of reference material in general.

You are absolutely right, a reference book should contain useful facts with references from authoritative sources, while this statement is true it also represent the major problem facing all literature as it apply to the Keris, which is lack of creditable informational resources from where authoritative information can be found.

Unlike Europe where history is well documented thru the ages, Indonesia are in the peculiar situation where history have been rewritten to fit the policies of past houses of power or rewritten to comply with changes in religious beliefs, so the possibility of having creditable information derived from the old documents or books are indeed slim, as these documents or books most likely have been rewritten over and over.

This leaves us with present literature and some older books from the late 18th and 19th century and nothing creditable prior to that other than the Serat Centhini which also has been rewritten over the years. So what is written is hearsay, passed down thru families or coming from present day authorities on the subject.

For the longest time there were very little literature available on the subject of the Keris, this in the last years seem to have exploded with many a picture book available, and that for the most part is what they are, picture books! Very little information with few if any reference to quoted sources of information.
Which bring us to the present day and the discussion on “Hulu Keris”. Here again I agree with you, this booklet I believe was never intended as an academic, well researched and referenced book, but an informational work in nature.
As for someone doing a serious scientifically researched reference book on the Hulu encompassing the entire Indonesian Archipelago, I sincerely doubt it, as what one may interpret a hulu as being today, may not necessarily be what it was interpreted as being say 300 years ago. A potential author of such a work will run into the problem of having little or no documented reference material.

Your question:
Without revealing my true age let me answer it this way. If I came to Solo at the age of 17 and someone offered me a hilt, I do not believe I would have asked :”what does this style represent?” I think I would have looked at it, feeling it in my hands, lightly rubbing it and if interested in it start a bargaining process, if successful and not knowing was it represented I would start to research the hilt upon returning home.
Basically I would do the same thing today. Many many many years later.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2010, 11:12 PM

Naga Sasra, you have very neatly summarised some of the problems in learning about the keris, and of course, this includes learning about keris hilts.

I would like to go a little further into this matter of the seeking of knowledge.

The keris is a multi facetted thing.

Because of this, the knowledge associated with the keris is also multi facetted.

Thus when we speak of "keris knowledge" we can then specify the nature of the knowledge.

We can have knowledge related to the manufacture of the keris, knowledge related to classification of styles and geographic points of origin, knowledge related to folklore, knowledge related to socio-cultural aspects, knowledge related to the art of the keris --- and there are probably a few other areas of knowledge that I have not mentioned.

Then we have the fact that the keris has been with us for a very long time, and as you have pointed out, that which was true at one point in time, was not necessarily true at some other point in time.

This element of change over time is further complicated by the problem of the character and application of both the Hindu and the Muslim belief systems in Javanese society. It can be quite incorrect to interpret symbols found in Javanese Hindu period art, most especially in folk art, in terms of mainstream Hindu belief, and the same is true of symbolism in Jawa during the Islamic era.

When we attempt study of the keris as it is found in places outside Jawa, further complications arise

So, when we speak of reliable keris reference books, we are really speaking of something that can probably never exist.

We have commentaries on the keris that provide us with one point of view at one point in time, and if this point of view has been provided by a respected person in the world of the keris, it is justifiable to adopt it as a common point of reference. This has happened with works of Bambang Harsinuksmo, and Haryono Haryoguritno.

If we go back in time, we find a similar thing following on from the publication in late colonial times of various works dealing with the keris, perhaps the most influential amongst these was "Panangguhing Duwung" by Mas Ngabehi Wirosoekadgo. I believe this work was of considerable influence upon the opinions of my own teacher, Empu Suparman, and other ahli keris of his generation.

If we travel further back in time we find that Centini was an influential work, however, Centini is a literary work, and any mention of keris in Centini is incidental to the central thread of this work.

Probably the foundation of keris literary works is the babad written by Pangeran Wijil :- "Silsilah Keturunan Empu Tanah Jawa", broadly "The Line of Descent of the Empus of the Land of Jawa". In this work the writer gives not only the line of descent, in a rather biblical form --- and empu so and so begat four sons and a daughter, the sons were this & this & etc & etc, and the daughter was that, --- but also details the movements of the people mentioned and the characteristics of their work. Pangeran Wijil's work seems to have formed the basis for M.Ng. Wirosoekadgo's work, and this work seems to have been the foundation stone of tangguh, from which all worthwhile knowledge of keris, according to Javanese standards, flows.

But since we are outside the Javanese system, we can validly ask the question:-

what do we mean by knowledge?

I suggest that before we criticise any source of information we should attempt to analyse our own objectives in the pursuit of knowledge, and thoughtfully apply all available resources to achievement of those objectives.

If we adopt this approach, I believe it will not take much effort before we become aware that we can glean only the barest of superficial information from most published works on the keris. To learn anything of true value we need to involve ourselves in the study of the history, culture, art, society and in fact all elements of those places where the keris is found.

If we stay only with "books on keris" we will not learn much at all.

If we really do want to try to understand the keris, and we are from outside Javanese society, we then need to go one step further and try in so far as it is possible to learn to apply the thought processes of a person raised as a Javanese. It is certain that we can never become Javanese, but we can learn to understand the way in which a Javanese person sees and relates to the world around him. Unless we can achieve this it is impossible for us to achieve any true understanding of the keris within any time frame.

So --- what do we mean by knowledge?

guwaya · 6th January 2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

Guwaya

Which bring us to the present day and the discussion on “Hulu Keris”. Here again I agree with you, this booklet I believe was never intended as an academic, well researched and referenced book, but an informational work in nature.

Naga Sasra:

I completely agree with your statement and I would like to thank you for the explanations to the HULU KERIS book as it might be that I have been misunderstood. I am the same opinion that the book "was never intended as an academic, well researched and referenced book", but when I read the different comments I had the impression that it was handled as that. It is mostly not the book(s) which I critsize but its the way the people read or handle the books.

The from Marcokeris made comment "IMO mr. Jensen's Krisdisk is the best work i have seen till today about keris hits" is a good sample for what I mean.

Although Marcokeris only spoke about the keris hilts I see the disk/book in its completness. And if I have a book in my hand - a book which seems to be ambitious - and then already at the beginning at the part terminology of the blade I stumble over an in my eyes essential error, then - and I only speek for me - I am questioning myself how will be the forthgoing parts and how well done the researches for creating such a book might have be done.

Finally again, I don't generally critisize straight on the book(s) itself as mistakes can happen, but in some books with the ambitiousness to belong to a higher level, essential faults really should not happen. I generally critisize the way how literature nowadays is used by the readers - much to less critical reading and that is what I ment some time ago when I wrote that in the closer future the not so well presentated but seriously researched books will be fogotten and the well presentated will be handled as reference books because of the lack of critical reading. And then the mistake in the terminolgy might become commen in its use and the right term will go under (I speek here only for the western readers).

So far so good - I know I am fighting against windmills - but it has to be said.

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2010, 09:35 PM

I agree with you completely, Guwaya.

In fact, I do not know of one single piece of keris literature that deals with the keris which could be regarded as a reliable source of information when subjected to the rigorous standards which you seem to espouse.

Perhaps David van Duuren's "Bibliography" is the only piece of literature that might come close to your standards, and that is a list of published works together with commentary on those works, so it deals indirectly, rather than directly with the keris.

Thus, for those of us who would study the keris we are really only left with the options of using all published works as tools to aid our own research and future study, or of using none of these works.

As you point out:- it is all in the attitude of the reader.

guwaya · 7th January 2010, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I agree with you completely, Guwaya.

In fact, I do not know of one single piece of keris literature that deals with the keris which could be regarded as a reliable source of information when subjected to the rigorous standards which you seem to espouse.

Perhaps David van Duuren's "Bibliography" is the only piece of literature that might come close to your standards, and that is a list of published works together with commentary on those works, so it deals indirectly, rather than directly with the keris.

Thus, for those of us who would study the keris we are really only left with the options of using all published works as tools to aid our own research and future study, or of using none of these works.

As you point out:- it is all in the attitude of the reader.

You are absolutely right - I also don't see "one single piece of keris literature that deals with the keris which could be regarded as a reliable source of information when subjected to the rigorous standards ......" and I didn't postulate there has to be and in my opinion there never will be, regarding the facts Naga Sasra already pointed out. And under a certain aspect it is good as it is, as it reflects the situation of studying the keris. And this was or is what I wanted to point out.

In the meanwhile there is a lot of literature about the keris on the market and somebody who is real interested to get deeper informations has a lot of possibilties to look for answers - he might not receive what he is looking for but this is another question. Fact is, there is a lot of literature but somebody has to read it, to read it carefully with requesting the sources of the information. And I am the opinion, the real interested person into the subject will do it and if it is possible for him he will go further into practical studies and requestionings at the places.

But even just a serious literature research for a real interested person is a very interesting matter as the side effect is to receive a lot of informations which can be compared dll., dll. - also further general and specific informations about the indegenious culture in which the object is embedded in.

I appreciate your hint to David van Duuren's "Bibliography" even if it is "just" an indirectly work - in fact I think it is an important work which saves a lot of time as it refers already the literature which is on the market. A real big advantage regarding the time as Harsrinuksmo's first edion of "Ensiklopedi" wasn't yet published.

So far so good and I would like to close with your final words: "it is all in the attitude of the reader" - how deep are his interests?!

1st January 2010, 02:44 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Unsusual hilt A collector friend just received this hilt from ivory. Since we both have never seen a hilt like this he asked me if I can post it here to get maybe some more informations about. Every comment are welcome. Attached Images

2nd January 2010, 01:49 PM	#11
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Hulu Keris Guwaya I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following. Is there any published book on Hulu Keris you would consider the foremost reference material available on the subject I am eager to continue the learning process, and look forward to your answer. Thank you, Erik

4th January 2010, 02:39 AM	#16
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	"For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variation "For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."[/QUOTE] Moshah But then you go the risk that beginners easily overtake wrong informations or attributions. The danger is to become attracted by the new wonderful presented picture books and to loose the critical eye for what is written as it is so easy .......... . Especially for beginners I take the oposite position: NOT "any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point."

1st January 2010, 03:58 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Beautiful hit IMO: Very rare to find . I don't have this hit... and is one of my target everytime i'm in Indonesia. A similar hit is in the book "Hulu keris" in which the author said it comes from Yogya ...or Solo area (I don't remember well) Congraturation

1st January 2010, 08:16 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	hmmm...i wonder about the age of this piece. I wonder if this isn't a contemporary artists interpretation of a rare older hilt which has then been treated to appear old. I am not familiar with the hilt in Hulu Keris. How old is that one said to be? It should be kept in mind that modern carvers are quite capable of reproducing rare old hilt styles and then presenting them as old with a bit of artificial aging and staining. Is it then a "rare" hilt or merely a copy of one?

1st January 2010, 10:49 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

2nd January 2010, 02:37 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful.

2nd January 2010, 04:25 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	In respect of the age of this hilt, I find that a digital photograph viewed on a PC screen is in no way adequate for me to form an opinion. It may be relatively old, it may be relatively new. I have no opinion at this time. Guwaya Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued. If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book? Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

3rd January 2010, 03:31 AM	#13
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	Guwaya Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued. If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book? [/QUOTE] Naga Sasra: I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following. Alan G. Maisey & Naga Sasra: I don't think that this is the right place to start a discussion about reference literature - on the other hand this is the second time in a short while somebody is searching for informations for a friend or a friend of a friend who is searching for answers but finally does not want to open his source - so it might be ok. once. I am not a teacher and I also don't want to be one. Finally everybody has to decide himselve what he views as a reference-book. Me for myself I adjust a certain demand to a book handled as a reference work. A reference book should contain useful facts, it should be a book you can refer for authoritative facts. It should be a book of facts which you look at to discover particular information and its cause is that the information is quickly found if needed. (For more please google). Under this aspect I cannot accept HULU KERIS as a reference book because of the lack of information. The lack that there isn't any book else is no criterion to take whatever is as a reference book. For me HULU KERIS is just an introductional overview of some ragam-ragam hulu keris to give an impression how many different forms there are and to which region they might be attributed to. The book from Zonnefeld about the Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago might be a a sample of how a reference book should look like although I am missing here the direct hints at every article to the sources of the information. But its a way a reference book about hilts could be done. Another good example for good research and serious information but limited to the Malayan Peninsular is the part of the hilts in "SPIRIT OF WOOD". Unfortunately a book about keris hilts covering the whole indonesian archipelago I also don't know - it would be an interesting challange for a serious field research but means investing a lot of money and time. So we are in the actual situation that people searching for special informations have to do a lot of work themselves and with the risk not to receive what they are looking for - but this is what the engagement into the keris involves. You cannot just open a book or ask the forum and get the information, you have to invest energy - one's own initiative is requested. Sooner or later hopefully somebody will do such above described serious and scientifically based researches and then possibly the result will be a reference book about keris hilts over the whole indonesian archipelago. At the present situation I don't see a global work or reference book about keris hilts. Finally, back to the HULU KERIS book, I would like to come to an end with a request to Alan G. Maisey and Naga Sasra. If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer? guwaya

3rd January 2010, 04:54 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Thank you very much Guwaya for your clarification of terminology. I much appreciate this revelation of your personal approach to the study of the keris. I agree with you in that "Hulu Keris" would fail miserably by any academic standards for acceptance as a reference work, and the same is true of the bulk of the body of literature that relates to the keris. Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly that "Hulu Keris", together with all other literature relating to keris fails to provide well researched and referenced information, however, speaking only for myself, I find this lack of perfectly structured, academically referenced information to be part of the fascination of the study of the keris, as it permits us to carry out our own research and form our own opinions, and all this research and the attendant opinion adds to the body of knowledge relating to the keris. The ongoing discussion of keris literature as it relates to the various topics raised for discussion here, forms an integral part of our discussion, and our joint learning process, thus it is appropriate, in my opinion, to discuss literature and reference sources relating to any matter under discussion. In fact, some of the most valuable research and opinion to come forth in recent years has been produced by people who have no special relationship with, nor interest in, the keris. Guwaya, you have raised the question:- If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer? Again, speaking only for myself, at the age of 16 or 17 --- which is when I would have been collecting for 5 years or so --- had I been fortunate enough to be in that Solo position, I would probably have been jubilant to have received such a revealing and perceptive answer. If ten years later I had been so stupid as to have even asked such a question, well, I would probably have been stupid enough to be satisfied with the answer then, also.

4th January 2010, 12:40 AM	#15
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Hi guys. We have to admit that it is really hard to find a really good reference book in the world of keris. But then again our perception of "reference" are actually evolves together with knowledge and experience. For beginners, any book with lots of pictures of hilts' examples and style variations can be regarded as a good reference point, even though very little details are enclosed in the picture's caption. On the other hand, for someone who has handled thousands of hilts and know better, these kind of books are not as informative as once when he started collecting years ago. For me, even though not all books are painstakingly informative, seeing hundreds of high-res quality pictures enclosed, together with close up / macro pixs, is like going for a stroll in a keris museum at your own pace. And you can keep coming back any time you wish so.

4th January 2010, 02:57 AM	#17
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Guwaya, Indeed it is a point that beginners can easily misunderstood and accepted that all the info in any keris book are true and evidence-based. Most beginners actually are buying stories from people in the keris trade, in their humble beginning. While not all people in the keris trade are that bad, but sadly this always happen. Anyway, by the time they are buying their 3rd keris onwards, these beginners actually has developed their own sense of learning. And those stories of might and magic are not of any relevance to them anymore. Same goes with book. There are numbers of keris books where the info are for entry level enthusiasts and contains many error (need further editing), but the fact is, it still sells. How much terror that we scared to befall upon new generation in order for them to learn their way up in the keris collecting world, it is actually a learning process, which is vital. The harder they fall, the harder they remember. Somehow, I feel that learning something in the hard way is always the best way...

4th January 2010, 05:22 PM	#18
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	IMO mr. Jensen's Krisdisk is the best work i have seen till today about keris hits

4th January 2010, 08:57 PM	#19
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Guwaya Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to the question from me, it helped me better understand the reasoning behind your opinion. I do however; have a few comments regarding the matter of reference material in general. You are absolutely right, a reference book should contain useful facts with references from authoritative sources, while this statement is true it also represent the major problem facing all literature as it apply to the Keris, which is lack of creditable informational resources from where authoritative information can be found. Unlike Europe where history is well documented thru the ages, Indonesia are in the peculiar situation where history have been rewritten to fit the policies of past houses of power or rewritten to comply with changes in religious beliefs, so the possibility of having creditable information derived from the old documents or books are indeed slim, as these documents or books most likely have been rewritten over and over. This leaves us with present literature and some older books from the late 18th and 19th century and nothing creditable prior to that other than the Serat Centhini which also has been rewritten over the years. So what is written is hearsay, passed down thru families or coming from present day authorities on the subject. For the longest time there were very little literature available on the subject of the Keris, this in the last years seem to have exploded with many a picture book available, and that for the most part is what they are, picture books! Very little information with few if any reference to quoted sources of information. Which bring us to the present day and the discussion on “Hulu Keris”. Here again I agree with you, this booklet I believe was never intended as an academic, well researched and referenced book, but an informational work in nature. As for someone doing a serious scientifically researched reference book on the Hulu encompassing the entire Indonesian Archipelago, I sincerely doubt it, as what one may interpret a hulu as being today, may not necessarily be what it was interpreted as being say 300 years ago. A potential author of such a work will run into the problem of having little or no documented reference material. Your question: Without revealing my true age let me answer it this way. If I came to Solo at the age of 17 and someone offered me a hilt, I do not believe I would have asked :”what does this style represent?” I think I would have looked at it, feeling it in my hands, lightly rubbing it and if interested in it start a bargaining process, if successful and not knowing was it represented I would start to research the hilt upon returning home. Basically I would do the same thing today. Many many many years later.

4th January 2010, 11:12 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Naga Sasra, you have very neatly summarised some of the problems in learning about the keris, and of course, this includes learning about keris hilts. I would like to go a little further into this matter of the seeking of knowledge. The keris is a multi facetted thing. Because of this, the knowledge associated with the keris is also multi facetted. Thus when we speak of "keris knowledge" we can then specify the nature of the knowledge. We can have knowledge related to the manufacture of the keris, knowledge related to classification of styles and geographic points of origin, knowledge related to folklore, knowledge related to socio-cultural aspects, knowledge related to the art of the keris --- and there are probably a few other areas of knowledge that I have not mentioned. Then we have the fact that the keris has been with us for a very long time, and as you have pointed out, that which was true at one point in time, was not necessarily true at some other point in time. This element of change over time is further complicated by the problem of the character and application of both the Hindu and the Muslim belief systems in Javanese society. It can be quite incorrect to interpret symbols found in Javanese Hindu period art, most especially in folk art, in terms of mainstream Hindu belief, and the same is true of symbolism in Jawa during the Islamic era. When we attempt study of the keris as it is found in places outside Jawa, further complications arise So, when we speak of reliable keris reference books, we are really speaking of something that can probably never exist. We have commentaries on the keris that provide us with one point of view at one point in time, and if this point of view has been provided by a respected person in the world of the keris, it is justifiable to adopt it as a common point of reference. This has happened with works of Bambang Harsinuksmo, and Haryono Haryoguritno. If we go back in time, we find a similar thing following on from the publication in late colonial times of various works dealing with the keris, perhaps the most influential amongst these was "Panangguhing Duwung" by Mas Ngabehi Wirosoekadgo. I believe this work was of considerable influence upon the opinions of my own teacher, Empu Suparman, and other ahli keris of his generation. If we travel further back in time we find that Centini was an influential work, however, Centini is a literary work, and any mention of keris in Centini is incidental to the central thread of this work. Probably the foundation of keris literary works is the babad written by Pangeran Wijil :- "Silsilah Keturunan Empu Tanah Jawa", broadly "The Line of Descent of the Empus of the Land of Jawa". In this work the writer gives not only the line of descent, in a rather biblical form --- and empu so and so begat four sons and a daughter, the sons were this & this & etc & etc, and the daughter was that, --- but also details the movements of the people mentioned and the characteristics of their work. Pangeran Wijil's work seems to have formed the basis for M.Ng. Wirosoekadgo's work, and this work seems to have been the foundation stone of tangguh, from which all worthwhile knowledge of keris, according to Javanese standards, flows. But since we are outside the Javanese system, we can validly ask the question:- what do we mean by knowledge? I suggest that before we criticise any source of information we should attempt to analyse our own objectives in the pursuit of knowledge, and thoughtfully apply all available resources to achievement of those objectives. If we adopt this approach, I believe it will not take much effort before we become aware that we can glean only the barest of superficial information from most published works on the keris. To learn anything of true value we need to involve ourselves in the study of the history, culture, art, society and in fact all elements of those places where the keris is found. If we stay only with "books on keris" we will not learn much at all. If we really do want to try to understand the keris, and we are from outside Javanese society, we then need to go one step further and try in so far as it is possible to learn to apply the thought processes of a person raised as a Javanese. It is certain that we can never become Javanese, but we can learn to understand the way in which a Javanese person sees and relates to the world around him. Unless we can achieve this it is impossible for us to achieve any true understanding of the keris within any time frame. So --- what do we mean by knowledge?

6th January 2010, 09:35 PM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	I agree with you completely, Guwaya. In fact, I do not know of one single piece of keris literature that deals with the keris which could be regarded as a reliable source of information when subjected to the rigorous standards which you seem to espouse. Perhaps David van Duuren's "Bibliography" is the only piece of literature that might come close to your standards, and that is a list of published works together with commentary on those works, so it deals indirectly, rather than directly with the keris. Thus, for those of us who would study the keris we are really only left with the options of using all published works as tools to aid our own research and future study, or of using none of these works. As you point out:- it is all in the attitude of the reader.