Jambiya for comments help needed

Atlantia · 21st June 2009, 06:51 PM

Hello Gentlemen, picked this one up today, can any help with ID or any info please?

kahnjar1 · 22nd June 2009, 06:11 AM

Looks Western Arabian but COULD be Indian with strong Arab influence. I have not seen an arab scabbard with a centre section quite like this. Usually made totally of silver. It appears more like an Indian scabbard to me. Is there any fabric residue inside the two pieces?
Regards Stuart
I should clarify................there is obviously fabric between the two silver sections, but it would appear from the pics that there is a significant thickness gap between it and the silver. Does it appear as if the present fabric?? is an "underlining" for something else?
Nice piece by the way! If it ever needs a new home.........................

Steve · 22nd June 2009, 08:12 AM

Hi,
I think your dagger is from India. It may have found it's way onto the arabian peninsula but it has a definite Indian format. Total silver/metal of good quality, floral decoration, round bud or blossom at the tip, fabric between chape and locket (usually with a metal connecting strip on the back).
It does not show too much ware and tear, but I also don't understand why the locket does not seem to fit snugly?
Nice piece! Good one.
Regards,
Steve

Atlantia · 22nd June 2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Looks Western Arabian but COULD be Indian with strong Arab influence. I have not seen an arab scabbard with a centre section quite like this. Usually made totally of silver. It appears more like an Indian scabbard to me. Is there any fabric residue inside the two pieces?
Regards Stuart
I should clarify................there is obviously fabric between the two silver sections, but it would appear from the pics that there is a significant thickness gap between it and the silver. Does it appear as if the present fabric?? is an "underlining" for something else?
Nice piece by the way! If it ever needs a new home.........................

Hi Stuart,
Thanks for helping, I was hoping you'd see the thread and take a look

To be completely honest the smooth lines and Indian 'look' were what really attracted me to this piece.
The Scabbard is as you say very similar to the classic Indian style with velvet covering over wood. The mounts are beautifully carved bronze which was once silvered but is now mostly showing the yellow of the base metal.
What is missing, is the flock from the material. Generally the piece was caked with 'brasso' polish residue and is going to have to suffer a gentle clean to remove the white crud. I think the velvet would probobly be best replaced as its in such a state.
Best Wishes
Gene
Here are some better pictures:

Atlantia · 22nd June 2009, 09:53 PM

Hey everyone, I can see lots of views here but only Stuart has offered an opinion

I really would like any comments, come on guys

kahnjar1 · 22nd June 2009, 11:40 PM

Hi again Gene,
I would have thought that it was more likely that the base metal would be brass rather than bronze, but you have the item to hand so can better tell. Some tips which might help re cleaning etc. These are my opinions only so "read between the lines".
Don't ever use Silvo to clean these sort of things for exactly the reason you state----residue in the etching. I usually use (I think you should be able to get it in the UK) Goddards Silver Cloth and if I really need to get into tight spots, an old toothbrush, with a SMALL bit of Goddards Silver Dip. Don't go overboard as a bit of tarnish can give the item a nice "old" look.
As far as the material section goes, I would NOT remove what is there already, as you don't know what it is holding together underneath! I would be inclined to recover it over the top.
You have asked in my post about the significance of the "onion" finials on the scabbard.
I will reply seperately on this.
Regards Stuart

Atlantia · 22nd June 2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi again Gene,
I would have thought that it was more likely that the base metal would be brass rather than bronze, but you have the item to hand so can better tell. Some tips which might help re cleaning etc. These are my opinions only so "read between the lines".
Don't ever use Silvo to clean these sort of things for exactly the reason you state----residue in the etching. I usually use (I think you should be able to get it in the UK) Goddards Silver Cloth and if I really need to get into tight spots, an old toothbrush, with a SMALL bit of Goddards Silver Dip. Don't go overboard as a bit of tarnish can give the item a nice "old" look.
As far as the material section goes, I would NOT remove what is there already, as you don't know what it is holding together underneath! I would be inclined to recover it over the top.
You have asked in my post about the significance of the "onion" finials on the scabbard.
I will reply seperately on this.
Regards Stuart

The Brasso/silvo catastrophe is something that I have to admit to having mixed feelings about. If it weren't for so many good brasses/bronzes being caked in the stuff, then I'd never get any bargains! But the downside is I do really hate cleaning it out, especially when its been there since the hayday of the stuff in the 70s!
You're right about the methods of cleaning and I'll take your advice mate

Can I ask you if you have any ideas for what other colours would be traditional for these?

Kind Regards
Gene

Of course, if you do have to clean them a bit too much to get the brasso/silvo cement off, then I have to resort to non-vegan methods of re-oxidising the bronze

That could affect my karma.
Yeah, this is probobly more correctly called brass, it is quite yellow

kahnjar1 · 23rd June 2009, 12:02 AM

I would be using a toothbrush to remove residue, or a firmer bristle brush if it was not loose. What about just washing it in water...should get rid of the powder.
As to colour...I have seen Red, Blue, Green, Gold on Indian sword scabbards---admittedly on the replica ones which seem to be about in large quantities, but of course old ones would normally have been a bit faded over the years unless they had been kept in the dark. You would need to get the "correct" shade of colour to make it look right though. I think if I were in your shoes I would use green, as close as possible to the stuff that is already there, or maybe just a little faded as the knife is not new. If you know someone who recovers pool tables you might be able to get some faded baise which could do the trick.
Stu.

Battara · 23rd June 2009, 12:52 AM

I agree that this is probably Indian in origin. IT may have been gilded brass once.

Atlantia · 23rd June 2009, 10:31 PM

Hi Battara,
I'm quite happy with Indian, thats the primary focus of my interest anyway.
Thanks for joining the discussion, I was beginning to think everyone had added me to their ignore list, or just hated the dagger

Do you have any other thoughts on it?

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 23rd June 2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Hi,
I think your dagger is from India. It may have found it's way onto the arabian peninsula but it has a definite Indian format. Total silver/metal of good quality, floral decoration, round bud or blossom at the tip, fabric between chape and locket (usually with a metal connecting strip on the back).
It does not show too much ware and tear, but I also don't understand why the locket does not seem to fit snugly?
Nice piece! Good one.
Regards,
Steve

Hello Steve!!
How did I miss your reply? Sorry mate, thanks for joining in

I'm familiar with 'jambiya-esq' Indian knives but I've never seen one which is sooooo close to the style of the genuine Arab ones. Probobly just my limited exposure to them I guess.
Thanks for your kind comments

Isn't the bottom mount just lovely?

Regards
Gene

P.S. Anyone think its worth etching the blade?

21st June 2009, 06:51 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Jambiya for comments help needed Hello Gentlemen, picked this one up today, can any help with ID or any info please?

22nd June 2009, 06:11 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Looks Western Arabian but COULD be Indian with strong Arab influence. I have not seen an arab scabbard with a centre section quite like this. Usually made totally of silver. It appears more like an Indian scabbard to me. Is there any fabric residue inside the two pieces? Regards Stuart I should clarify................there is obviously fabric between the two silver sections, but it would appear from the pics that there is a significant thickness gap between it and the silver. Does it appear as if the present fabric?? is an "underlining" for something else? Nice piece by the way! If it ever needs a new home......................... Last edited by kahnjar1; 22nd June 2009 at 07:08 AM.

22nd June 2009, 08:12 AM	#3
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Hi, I think your dagger is from India. It may have found it's way onto the arabian peninsula but it has a definite Indian format. Total silver/metal of good quality, floral decoration, round bud or blossom at the tip, fabric between chape and locket (usually with a metal connecting strip on the back). It does not show too much ware and tear, but I also don't understand why the locket does not seem to fit snugly? Nice piece! Good one. Regards, Steve

22nd June 2009, 09:53 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hey everyone, I can see lots of views here but only Stuart has offered an opinion I really would like any comments, come on guys

22nd June 2009, 11:40 PM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi again Gene, I would have thought that it was more likely that the base metal would be brass rather than bronze, but you have the item to hand so can better tell. Some tips which might help re cleaning etc. These are my opinions only so "read between the lines". Don't ever use Silvo to clean these sort of things for exactly the reason you state----residue in the etching. I usually use (I think you should be able to get it in the UK) Goddards Silver Cloth and if I really need to get into tight spots, an old toothbrush, with a SMALL bit of Goddards Silver Dip. Don't go overboard as a bit of tarnish can give the item a nice "old" look. As far as the material section goes, I would NOT remove what is there already, as you don't know what it is holding together underneath! I would be inclined to recover it over the top. You have asked in my post about the significance of the "onion" finials on the scabbard. I will reply seperately on this. Regards Stuart

23rd June 2009, 12:02 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I would be using a toothbrush to remove residue, or a firmer bristle brush if it was not loose. What about just washing it in water...should get rid of the powder. As to colour...I have seen Red, Blue, Green, Gold on Indian sword scabbards---admittedly on the replica ones which seem to be about in large quantities, but of course old ones would normally have been a bit faded over the years unless they had been kept in the dark. You would need to get the "correct" shade of colour to make it look right though. I think if I were in your shoes I would use green, as close as possible to the stuff that is already there, or maybe just a little faded as the knife is not new. If you know someone who recovers pool tables you might be able to get some faded baise which could do the trick. Stu.

23rd June 2009, 12:52 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I agree that this is probably Indian in origin. IT may have been gilded brass once.

23rd June 2009, 10:31 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Battara, I'm quite happy with Indian, thats the primary focus of my interest anyway. Thanks for joining the discussion, I was beginning to think everyone had added me to their ignore list, or just hated the dagger Do you have any other thoughts on it? Regards Gene