What is this sword?

tagalanao · 17th September 2005, 05:12 AM

Hi,

A few of you may have already seen this. More comments appreciated. Got this from Marawi. The blade could easily cut a nail. It's huge and heavy. My Maranao contact says it's a Moro blade. But he also jokingly refers to it as the "Barbarian." Maybe he saw Conan the Barbarian.

Thanks!

BobT

philkid · 17th September 2005, 06:33 AM

Hi Bob, I have also been offered a sword similar to that but with different style. It has a superb quality blade but the hilt and scabbard was somekind of funny since it was colored with the Philippine flag. I think it is more of a Luzon type hilt but the blade is somewhat like that of the sword of "Panday". Do you think our friends in Lanao are also reproducing swords like that of Luzon? Can you give me its measurements?

Ahriman · 17th September 2005, 05:13 PM

If it'd be older, I'd say a refurnitured Oakeshott XI, or a XIII . Unfortunatuly, they'd be 12-14th century... so it's out, but the blade design, the lenght (the Albions' blade is longer only with 3"), and the mentioned cutting ability is all too familiar. BTW, I love cutting sword like these. So I don't know... is it possible that it remained in fashion for so long?

Ian · 17th September 2005, 06:05 PM

This is almost certainly a Moro copy of a European broadsword. I have a provenanced example, complete with wooden scabbard, that was commissioned in Lanao del Sur in the early 20th C by a US Administrator.

The Moro origin is probably correct. Nice sword.

Ian.

Ahriman · 17th September 2005, 06:46 PM

What do you mean by broadsword? The middle-age, or the early modern-age one? Just for clearing things up in my mind.

Ahriman · 17th September 2005, 06:48 PM

I forgot to add this to my earlier post AND the newer one as well. Moro origin is correct as far as I know, but I'm faaaaar from being an expert.

fearn · 17th September 2005, 06:50 PM

Hi Ian et al.,

Just to start an argument, why couldn't this be a philippine copy of a Chinese Jian? Why does it have to be a copy of anything European?

F

Ahriman · 17th September 2005, 06:55 PM

Even as I'm not Ian... I think that Jians are made with a bit narrower and more paralell blades. I might be wrong.
But the blade looks very much like the ones I posted.

Hm, before I forget: I don't know much of chinese swords, so it was only a guess.

Ian · 17th September 2005, 08:23 PM

Ahriman:

"Huge and heavy" would seem to exclude a jian, which seems to me a relatively light and fast version of the straight-bladed sword. The martial techniques that I have seen demonstrated with the jian emphasized skill and technique rather than brute force, not that skill and technique is irrelevant to heavy weapons also.

I was referring to a medieval broadsword above.

Ian.

Edit: Pictures of my Moro sword below (Commissioned in 1930)

The blade is well forged and the fuller is very even for hand forged work. Note the precision of the fuller and bevels of the edges towards the tip of the blade (second picture). The handle is a dark hardwood (ebony) trimmed with brass. A very solid and well made piece. The blade resembles an Oakeshott Type X (11th C).
OAL = 36.25 inches (92 cm)
Blade = 27 inches (68 cm)
Handle = 9.25 inches (24 cm)

tagalanao · 18th September 2005, 01:32 AM

Thanks for all your comments. I'd say the Moro sword makers, at least those in Tugaya in Lanao del Sur, are capable of copying other swords. On my first visit to Tugaya, my Maranao guide jokingly told me about the complaint of someone from Tugaya ... "What's wrong with this government? They say it's bankrupt, that it has no money. But if we help them make money, they get mad at us!" But it appears they don't do it that much today, coz they're good into the metal craft, and the metal coins have very little value these days.

BobT

Ahriman · 18th September 2005, 01:54 PM

Ian: then I was right, in both things.

Huge and heavy is relative, I mean, I can swing my overweight sword quite fast... it is heavy enough for shearing lighter plate suits, but balanced well enough to wield it single-handedly AND effectively. With a heavier sword, you have to play a more calculating game, use mastercuts and windings, etc.. And, BTW, european swordsman, especially in the german school doesn't really utilize blocks or parries, they mostly rely on the mentioned mastercuts - it means that your attack itself defends you. E.g., in a zwerchau, which I use mostly against cuts coming from above or from the right, you cut with the back edge, from your right, with your right thumb on the side of the hilt, while you step forward and to the right. This'll hit the head-face of the attacker while your quillon and ricasso stops his blade. Even if you miss, your left elbow still remains bended, from where you can deliver a thurst to the face, or, as his blade is on your quillon/ricasso, you can wrench his blade from his grip, leaving him unarmed and you ready for an inverse zornhau.

Sorry for this, but I like defending heavy swords.

And especially sorry if you all knew this before now.

Your sword is even nicer to my eyes, especially as I love long hilts, makes them even more deadly.

zamboanga · 19th September 2005, 09:27 AM

here is an example of a maranao made jian.

At first the only thing I knew about this was that it's maranao made.

I was enlightened as to the name of the sword it tries to copy in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4&page=1&pp=30.

VVV · 19th September 2005, 10:29 AM

Hi Zamboanga,

I recognise that sword

But the blade is more wakizashi than a jian.

Michael

Ahriman · 19th September 2005, 11:12 AM

Even as I didn't ever study chinese MAs, I recall short-edge usage from my deep memories of a lesson from a relative...

Which means that a jian is not only straight but double-edged as well. If I'm wrong, tell me, so I can challange him for a duel with reason.

BTW, nice sword, even if it's short for my taste.

17th September 2005, 05:12 AM	#1
tagalanao Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lanao, Philippines Posts: 37	What is this sword? Hi, A few of you may have already seen this. More comments appreciated. Got this from Marawi. The blade could easily cut a nail. It's huge and heavy. My Maranao contact says it's a Moro blade. But he also jokingly refers to it as the "Barbarian." Maybe he saw Conan the Barbarian. Thanks! BobT Attached Images

17th September 2005, 08:23 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Ahriman: "Huge and heavy" would seem to exclude a jian, which seems to me a relatively light and fast version of the straight-bladed sword. The martial techniques that I have seen demonstrated with the jian emphasized skill and technique rather than brute force, not that skill and technique is irrelevant to heavy weapons also. I was referring to a medieval broadsword above. Ian. Edit: Pictures of my Moro sword below (Commissioned in 1930) The blade is well forged and the fuller is very even for hand forged work. Note the precision of the fuller and bevels of the edges towards the tip of the blade (second picture). The handle is a dark hardwood (ebony) trimmed with brass. A very solid and well made piece. The blade resembles an Oakeshott Type X (11th C). OAL = 36.25 inches (92 cm) Blade = 27 inches (68 cm) Handle = 9.25 inches (24 cm) Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 17th September 2005 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Pictures attached of Moro Broadsword

19th September 2005, 09:27 AM	#12
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	Maranao made jian here is an example of a maranao made jian. At first the only thing I knew about this was that it's maranao made. I was enlightened as to the name of the sword it tries to copy in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4&page=1&pp=30. Attached Images

17th September 2005, 06:33 AM	#2
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	Hi Bob, I have also been offered a sword similar to that but with different style. It has a superb quality blade but the hilt and scabbard was somekind of funny since it was colored with the Philippine flag. I think it is more of a Luzon type hilt but the blade is somewhat like that of the sword of "Panday". Do you think our friends in Lanao are also reproducing swords like that of Luzon? Can you give me its measurements?

17th September 2005, 05:13 PM	#3
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	If it'd be older, I'd say a refurnitured Oakeshott XI, or a XIII . Unfortunatuly, they'd be 12-14th century... so it's out, but the blade design, the lenght (the Albions' blade is longer only with 3"), and the mentioned cutting ability is all too familiar. BTW, I love cutting sword like these. So I don't know... is it possible that it remained in fashion for so long?

17th September 2005, 06:05 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	This is almost certainly a Moro copy of a European broadsword. I have a provenanced example, complete with wooden scabbard, that was commissioned in Lanao del Sur in the early 20th C by a US Administrator. The Moro origin is probably correct. Nice sword. Ian.

17th September 2005, 06:46 PM	#5
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	What do you mean by broadsword? The middle-age, or the early modern-age one? Just for clearing things up in my mind.

17th September 2005, 06:48 PM	#6
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	I forgot to add this to my earlier post AND the newer one as well. Moro origin is correct as far as I know, but I'm faaaaar from being an expert.

17th September 2005, 06:50 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ian et al., Just to start an argument, why couldn't this be a philippine copy of a Chinese Jian? Why does it have to be a copy of anything European? F

17th September 2005, 06:55 PM	#8
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Even as I'm not Ian... I think that Jians are made with a bit narrower and more paralell blades. I might be wrong. But the blade looks very much like the ones I posted. Hm, before I forget: I don't know much of chinese swords, so it was only a guess.

18th September 2005, 01:32 AM	#10
tagalanao Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lanao, Philippines Posts: 37	Thanks for all your comments. I'd say the Moro sword makers, at least those in Tugaya in Lanao del Sur, are capable of copying other swords. On my first visit to Tugaya, my Maranao guide jokingly told me about the complaint of someone from Tugaya ... "What's wrong with this government? They say it's bankrupt, that it has no money. But if we help them make money, they get mad at us!" But it appears they don't do it that much today, coz they're good into the metal craft, and the metal coins have very little value these days. BobT

18th September 2005, 01:54 PM	#11
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Ian: then I was right, in both things. Huge and heavy is relative, I mean, I can swing my overweight sword quite fast... it is heavy enough for shearing lighter plate suits, but balanced well enough to wield it single-handedly AND effectively. With a heavier sword, you have to play a more calculating game, use mastercuts and windings, etc.. And, BTW, european swordsman, especially in the german school doesn't really utilize blocks or parries, they mostly rely on the mentioned mastercuts - it means that your attack itself defends you. E.g., in a zwerchau, which I use mostly against cuts coming from above or from the right, you cut with the back edge, from your right, with your right thumb on the side of the hilt, while you step forward and to the right. This'll hit the head-face of the attacker while your quillon and ricasso stops his blade. Even if you miss, your left elbow still remains bended, from where you can deliver a thurst to the face, or, as his blade is on your quillon/ricasso, you can wrench his blade from his grip, leaving him unarmed and you ready for an inverse zornhau. Sorry for this, but I like defending heavy swords. And especially sorry if you all knew this before now. Your sword is even nicer to my eyes, especially as I love long hilts, makes them even more deadly.

19th September 2005, 10:29 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Zamboanga, I recognise that sword But the blade is more wakizashi than a jian. Michael

19th September 2005, 11:12 AM	#14
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Even as I didn't ever study chinese MAs, I recall short-edge usage from my deep memories of a lesson from a relative... Which means that a jian is not only straight but double-edged as well. If I'm wrong, tell me, so I can challange him for a duel with reason. BTW, nice sword, even if it's short for my taste.