Help to ID this Congolese weapon

LPCA · 24th March 2009, 12:36 PM

Bonjour, friends.
A new study is on to implement my site BLADE with Couteaux du Congo Belge. Some of the blades i collected are remaining to ID, difficult for me, surely easy for some guys of you.
Scabbard is 2 wooden parts tied with rattan. Overall lenght is 56 cm. Blade is 43,5 cm. long and 11 cm. large.
Blade is of a nice forge and is patterned with dots.
Of course, i wandered among documentation and net to approach the truth. without success.
Which ethnie, tribe, name of the weapon (some have), which documentation or URL?.

Would be great to clear... others unknown of me will follow.

Best to you.
Louis-Pierre

Redsabre · 24th March 2009, 06:43 PM

Greetings, I believe what you have there is a short sword of the Luba of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Here is a picture of one similar to yours:

http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/3b/fb/0d20_1.JPG

Jim McDougall · 24th March 2009, 06:50 PM

Very nice piece Louis Pierre! and nicely done quick response Redsabre!!

I think one interesting aspect of these African tribal weapons is the intriguing decorative motif, markings and symbolism on the blades. It would be most interesting to look into the motifs used in the material culture of these tribes to learn more on where decoration ends, and key tribal symbolism begins.

All best regards,
Jim

LPCA · 24th March 2009, 07:05 PM

Hi, Redsabre, thanks a lot for your answer and for the image you joined. What is not easy with these african guys is their free interpretation , but that is also their charm. I shall post some other weapons for the same purpose.
Thanks again, you have been as quick as a roadrunner.

Yes, Jim, i just finished my study on oriental firearms and i go on with this new subject
Good that some forumites share the same interest and can help me.

See you, friends
Louis-Pierre

Tim Simmons · 26th March 2009, 06:56 PM

I Like the expanding zigzag pattern, makes it appear to have movement rather than stiff and static. Very cool. Zigzag papers, lucky I do not need them anymore

LPCA · 26th March 2009, 08:06 PM

Jim,

You pointed on the right problem of Africa. As you know, the blades are a pretext to try to understand people. I just opened the door of this vast subject which is not easy to approach.

First -We think art and free interpretation, they think usefull with respect of their tribe'straditions.
I don't think that the patterns on an african blade are a free artistic interpretation for pleasure. They are especially patterns of one or more tribes and we may find them somewhere (clothes, leathers or shields,...).

Second -The notion of OLD seems to be different for us and them. For us, a XIX° piece is not really old: our grand-father's father...
For them, it's of course the same but climate and insects as termites are merciless. So, a mask which is one century ago (1900) is exceptional. Usually, a piece of the 40's or 50's is considered as having age.

Third - Authenticity and age does not match for all the cases.
A gift to Mr. Stanley at the very end of XIX° is not considered as authentic because it had been done off the trends of the tribe. It's old but not authentic.
What's authentic is a piece done by the tribe to be usefull to the tribe.

It is not easy to change his mind on things. It is mandatory to understand this magic world.

See You, my friend.
Louis-Pierre

Luc LEFEBVRE · 27th March 2009, 12:41 AM

Hi Louis-Pierre,
Your model is not typical of the Luba style, look at the handle, specific blade forged with facets on the pics joined.
Luc

LPCA · 27th March 2009, 08:51 AM

Bonjour, Luc.

You are right. the forge is not the same, not tribal patterns.
The forge with facets is specific and signs the membership in a tribe.

What's a pity is that i saw the sane knife with reference to its tribe and i loose this documentation. What's sure is that this blade is congolese, ... but from which tribe...

I hope that one forumite wil give the key of that enigm.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your help and cheers to your excellent website.

Amicalement.
Louis-Pierre

24th March 2009, 12:36 PM	#1
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Help to ID this Congolese weapon Bonjour, friends. A new study is on to implement my site BLADE with Couteaux du Congo Belge. Some of the blades i collected are remaining to ID, difficult for me, surely easy for some guys of you. Scabbard is 2 wooden parts tied with rattan. Overall lenght is 56 cm. Blade is 43,5 cm. long and 11 cm. large. Blade is of a nice forge and is patterned with dots. Of course, i wandered among documentation and net to approach the truth. without success. Which ethnie, tribe, name of the weapon (some have), which documentation or URL?. Would be great to clear... others unknown of me will follow. Best to you. Louis-Pierre Attached Images

27th March 2009, 12:41 AM	#7
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	Hi Louis-Pierre, Your model is not typical of the Luba style, look at the handle, specific blade forged with facets on the pics joined. Luc Attached Images

24th March 2009, 06:43 PM	#2
Redsabre Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: California, USA Posts: 7	Greetings, I believe what you have there is a short sword of the Luba of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Here is a picture of one similar to yours: http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/3b/fb/0d20_1.JPG

24th March 2009, 06:50 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Very nice piece Louis Pierre! and nicely done quick response Redsabre!! I think one interesting aspect of these African tribal weapons is the intriguing decorative motif, markings and symbolism on the blades. It would be most interesting to look into the motifs used in the material culture of these tribes to learn more on where decoration ends, and key tribal symbolism begins. All best regards, Jim

24th March 2009, 07:05 PM	#4
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi, Redsabre, thanks a lot for your answer and for the image you joined. What is not easy with these african guys is their free interpretation , but that is also their charm. I shall post some other weapons for the same purpose. Thanks again, you have been as quick as a roadrunner. Yes, Jim, i just finished my study on oriental firearms and i go on with this new subject Good that some forumites share the same interest and can help me. See you, friends Louis-Pierre

26th March 2009, 06:56 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I Like the expanding zigzag pattern, makes it appear to have movement rather than stiff and static. Very cool. Zigzag papers, lucky I do not need them anymore

26th March 2009, 08:06 PM	#6
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Jim, You pointed on the right problem of Africa. As you know, the blades are a pretext to try to understand people. I just opened the door of this vast subject which is not easy to approach. First -We think art and free interpretation, they think usefull with respect of their tribe'straditions. I don't think that the patterns on an african blade are a free artistic interpretation for pleasure. They are especially patterns of one or more tribes and we may find them somewhere (clothes, leathers or shields,...). Second -The notion of OLD seems to be different for us and them. For us, a XIX° piece is not really old: our grand-father's father... For them, it's of course the same but climate and insects as termites are merciless. So, a mask which is one century ago (1900) is exceptional. Usually, a piece of the 40's or 50's is considered as having age. Third - Authenticity and age does not match for all the cases. A gift to Mr. Stanley at the very end of XIX° is not considered as authentic because it had been done off the trends of the tribe. It's old but not authentic. What's authentic is a piece done by the tribe to be usefull to the tribe. It is not easy to change his mind on things. It is mandatory to understand this magic world. See You, my friend. Louis-Pierre

27th March 2009, 08:51 AM	#8
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Bonjour, Luc. You are right. the forge is not the same, not tribal patterns. The forge with facets is specific and signs the membership in a tribe. What's a pity is that i saw the sane knife with reference to its tribe and i loose this documentation. What's sure is that this blade is congolese, ... but from which tribe... I hope that one forumite wil give the key of that enigm. Anyway, thanks a lot for your help and cheers to your excellent website. Amicalement. Louis-Pierre