Tulwar for Id please

Claus · 22nd April 2014, 10:17 PM

Hello,

a friend asked me about this Tulwar.
It's not my area so maybe you can help me with some info.
The Tulwar is ~ 95 cm long and he dated it early to middle 19 Century.
What's your opinion?

Thank you
Claus

Jim McDougall · 23rd April 2014, 07:55 AM

Claus, it is always extremely difficult to date and regionalize tulwars as the form itself was widely diffused and used traditionally through many generations. I think it is typically pretty safe to assess this one as mid 19th century, however I think the blade could be earlier.
These type blades, with notably pronounced ricasso and these triple fullers were I believe produced in Rajasthani regions from mid to late 18th century. The now worn stamped markings in the fullers recall similar groupings seen in the fullers of Italian blades often found in 'firangi' baskethilts. Rajputs and Sikhs also carried these 'khanda' baskethilts, while using tulwars as well.

I would suspect this is likely a Rajput weapon and with the military mounts it may have been used in one of the native regiments in the British Raj. The floral center in the chowk seems often seen in tulwars of northwest frontier regions as well as Sind and Baluchistan. The well worn blade suggests this may have seen use into the 20th century.

Very nice example and in its well worn and soundly remounted situation seems likely to have some great history to it.

Nicely done in showing the motif in the pommel dish, an often overlooked element in tulwars. The symbolism in these motifs it has been suggested may have various associations from sunburst to floral, though nothing conclusive has yet been determined overall .

Claus · 23rd April 2014, 10:40 PM

Thank you Jim,

my first thought was military use of this Tulwar, too.
It seems to be a good fighting Sword.
I think I'll have a closer look at the Tulwar and maybe take some better pictures of the blademarkings.

Greetings
Claus

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2014, 11:32 PM

You're very welcome Claus,
Ive been looking for more on these double lined markings and these shown on an Indian sword might be close to what we're seeing here.

In the discussion which this image came from (Jens posted a khanda 2005 with 'firangi' blade). It was agreed that most of these were 'Genoa' blades imported into India, and that Indian smiths seldom copied European lettering however I think there were some who did. While they usually did not know English, it would seem that stamps or letters could have been used regardless of knowledge of the language. This two line type inscription seems remarkably similar to yours.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th April 2014, 05:32 PM

Salaams All ~ I have the impression that similar script is present on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ace+collection at # 23 and # 24.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 26th April 2014, 09:11 PM

Ibrahiim thank you for the link, and its good to revisit those images of this museum's collections, pretty breathtaking weaponry.

As you note, the lettering in linear configuration and parallel see on the khanda in #24 is in sense probably of the type which appears to be duplicated in the blade of this tulwar.

The blade on that khanda (in #24) does appear to be 'firangi', that is European, and these kinds of inscriptions are often acrostics, or using the first letter of words in invocations, phrases or slogans. These are often enclosed by various interpretations of the cross, in the case on this tulwar apparently the four dot version .

At the base of the inscribed letters on the khanda blade, these are much broader and inscribed rather than stamped, but of the acrostic type, and the large capital 'S' letters are believed to represent 'sacrificum sanctum' or such abbreviated and associated inclusions along with the large Greek cross.

While these letters in this tulwar are apparently very worn and indiscernible it does become tempting to think this blade may indeed be an earlier European blade rather than Indian produced with such influences.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th April 2014, 10:40 PM

Hi Jim,
To me there is no doubt, that the blade you showed is of Indian origin.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2014, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Jim,
To me there is no doubt, that the blade you showed is of Indian origin.
Jens

Thank you so much Jens, your assessment is in my opinion the final word, and its good to have this settled to stand as a benchmark on these. It is interesting how the Indian artisans transcribed these Latin letters and phrases. I had read somewhere one opinion that this was unusual because the native artisans only read Sanskrit etc. however I cannot see how that would keep them from copying the words 'artistically' or especially in using stamps.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th April 2014, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim thank you for the link, and its good to revisit those images of this museum's collections, pretty breathtaking weaponry.

As you note, the lettering in linear configuration and parallel see on the khanda in #24 is in sense probably of the type which appears to be duplicated in the blade of this tulwar.

The blade on that khanda (in #24) does appear to be 'firangi', that is European, and these kinds of inscriptions are often acrostics, or using the first letter of words in invocations, phrases or slogans. These are often enclosed by various interpretations of the cross, in the case on this tulwar apparently the four dot version .

At the base of the inscribed letters on the khanda blade, these are much broader and inscribed rather than stamped, but of the acrostic type, and the large capital 'S' letters are believed to represent 'sacrificum sanctum' or such abbreviated and associated inclusions along with the large Greek cross.

While these letters in this tulwar are apparently very worn and indiscernible it does become tempting to think this blade may indeed be an earlier European blade rather than Indian produced with such influences.

Thanks Jim, I suspected that this was a more important and older blade than a lot of run of the mill Tulvar now hitting the markets and as other regions slow down ...the big suppliers from India, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran seem to be filling the void... in the case of items hitting souks here...viz; Muttrah, Salalah and Sharjah. Thanks for researching the style and possible meaning also...

It is very much appreciated how much time and trouble you go through to expand on these ethnographics and it must be an inspiration to new people and other members alike. Bravo Sir !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Claus · 27th April 2014, 09:52 PM

Thank you all for the comments and the great link to the wallace collection.
Could the dimensions of the blade give a clue for the manufacturing country of the blade?
Maybe the European trade blades are longer/thicker than the native blades?

Greetings
Claus

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2014, 02:46 AM

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for the kind words!!! I very much enjoy what I do, and am glad if my efforts are helpful. I have always learned a lot from everyone here as well so it is a good exchange

Claus glad the information shared here is helpful.
Actually your question on the thickness of European blades is well placed, however as to the dimensions, it is difficult to determine nationality or region with blades as far as I have known. This is usually compounded by the often constant remounting, refurbishing and sometimes entire reprofiling in their working lives.

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2014, 02:46 AM

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for the kind words!!! I very much enjoy what I do, and am glad if my efforts are helpful. I have always learned a lot from everyone here as well so it is a good exchange

Claus glad the information shared here is helpful.
Actually your question on the thickness of European blades is well placed, however as to the dimensions, it is difficult to determine nationality or region with blades as far as I have known. This is usually compounded by the often constant remounting, refurbishing and sometimes entire reprofiling in their working lives.

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2014, 03:18 AM

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for the kind words!!! I very much enjoy what I do, and am glad if my efforts are helpful. I have always learned a lot from everyone here as well so it is a good exchange

Claus glad the information shared here is helpful.
Actually your question on the thickness of European blades is well placed, however as to the dimensions, it is difficult to determine nationality or region with blades as far as I have known. This is usually compounded by the often constant remounting, refurbishing and sometimes entire reprofiling in their working lives.

Claus · 8th May 2014, 10:35 PM

Hello again,

finally i had the opportunity to examine the Tulwar and take new Pictures.
At the bottom of the Scabbard is a pattern.
Looks like the handle was painted black. Everywhere on the handle rests of colour are finding.
The Blade is of a nice Quality. Strong and flexible.
Blade lenght 73cm
Bladethickness tapers from 8mm to 5mm
Blade tip is double edged on the last 23cm
Blade wide is 3,5cm at the ricasso and 2,8/2,5 cm at the edge

The Ricasso is stamped on both sides. Maybe this detail is overlooked till now, so i took some pictures of this detail.
Perhaps this detail brings something new about the tulwar.

Best regards
Claus

22nd April 2014, 10:17 PM	#1
Claus Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 8	Tulwar for Id please Hello, a friend asked me about this Tulwar. It's not my area so maybe you can help me with some info. The Tulwar is ~ 95 cm long and he dated it early to middle 19 Century. What's your opinion? Thank you Claus Attached Images

24th April 2014, 11:32 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	You're very welcome Claus, Ive been looking for more on these double lined markings and these shown on an Indian sword might be close to what we're seeing here. In the discussion which this image came from (Jens posted a khanda 2005 with 'firangi' blade). It was agreed that most of these were 'Genoa' blades imported into India, and that Indian smiths seldom copied European lettering however I think there were some who did. While they usually did not know English, it would seem that stamps or letters could have been used regardless of knowledge of the language. This two line type inscription seems remarkably similar to yours. Attached Images

8th May 2014, 10:35 PM	#14
Claus Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 8	News from the TulwarHello again Hello again, finally i had the opportunity to examine the Tulwar and take new Pictures. At the bottom of the Scabbard is a pattern. Looks like the handle was painted black. Everywhere on the handle rests of colour are finding. The Blade is of a nice Quality. Strong and flexible. Blade lenght 73cm Bladethickness tapers from 8mm to 5mm Blade tip is double edged on the last 23cm Blade wide is 3,5cm at the ricasso and 2,8/2,5 cm at the edge The Ricasso is stamped on both sides. Maybe this detail is overlooked till now, so i took some pictures of this detail. Perhaps this detail brings something new about the tulwar. Best regards Claus Attached Images Last edited by Claus; 9th May 2014 at 07:18 PM.

23rd April 2014, 07:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Claus, it is always extremely difficult to date and regionalize tulwars as the form itself was widely diffused and used traditionally through many generations. I think it is typically pretty safe to assess this one as mid 19th century, however I think the blade could be earlier. These type blades, with notably pronounced ricasso and these triple fullers were I believe produced in Rajasthani regions from mid to late 18th century. The now worn stamped markings in the fullers recall similar groupings seen in the fullers of Italian blades often found in 'firangi' baskethilts. Rajputs and Sikhs also carried these 'khanda' baskethilts, while using tulwars as well. I would suspect this is likely a Rajput weapon and with the military mounts it may have been used in one of the native regiments in the British Raj. The floral center in the chowk seems often seen in tulwars of northwest frontier regions as well as Sind and Baluchistan. The well worn blade suggests this may have seen use into the 20th century. Very nice example and in its well worn and soundly remounted situation seems likely to have some great history to it. Nicely done in showing the motif in the pommel dish, an often overlooked element in tulwars. The symbolism in these motifs it has been suggested may have various associations from sunburst to floral, though nothing conclusive has yet been determined overall .

23rd April 2014, 10:40 PM	#3
Claus Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 8	Thank you Jim, my first thought was military use of this Tulwar, too. It seems to be a good fighting Sword. I think I'll have a closer look at the Tulwar and maybe take some better pictures of the blademarkings. Greetings Claus

25th April 2014, 05:32 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All ~ I have the impression that similar script is present on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ace+collection at # 23 and # 24. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

26th April 2014, 09:11 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Ibrahiim thank you for the link, and its good to revisit those images of this museum's collections, pretty breathtaking weaponry. As you note, the lettering in linear configuration and parallel see on the khanda in #24 is in sense probably of the type which appears to be duplicated in the blade of this tulwar. The blade on that khanda (in #24) does appear to be 'firangi', that is European, and these kinds of inscriptions are often acrostics, or using the first letter of words in invocations, phrases or slogans. These are often enclosed by various interpretations of the cross, in the case on this tulwar apparently the four dot version . At the base of the inscribed letters on the khanda blade, these are much broader and inscribed rather than stamped, but of the acrostic type, and the large capital 'S' letters are believed to represent 'sacrificum sanctum' or such abbreviated and associated inclusions along with the large Greek cross. While these letters in this tulwar are apparently very worn and indiscernible it does become tempting to think this blade may indeed be an earlier European blade rather than Indian produced with such influences.

26th April 2014, 10:40 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, To me there is no doubt, that the blade you showed is of Indian origin. Jens

27th April 2014, 09:52 PM	#10
Claus Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 8	Thank you all for the comments and the great link to the wallace collection. Could the dimensions of the blade give a clue for the manufacturing country of the blade? Maybe the European trade blades are longer/thicker than the native blades? Greetings Claus

29th April 2014, 02:46 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thank you so much Ibrahiim for the kind words!!! I very much enjoy what I do, and am glad if my efforts are helpful. I have always learned a lot from everyone here as well so it is a good exchange Claus glad the information shared here is helpful. Actually your question on the thickness of European blades is well placed, however as to the dimensions, it is difficult to determine nationality or region with blades as far as I have known. This is usually compounded by the often constant remounting, refurbishing and sometimes entire reprofiling in their working lives.

29th April 2014, 03:18 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thank you so much Ibrahiim for the kind words!!! I very much enjoy what I do, and am glad if my efforts are helpful. I have always learned a lot from everyone here as well so it is a good exchange Claus glad the information shared here is helpful. Actually your question on the thickness of European blades is well placed, however as to the dimensions, it is difficult to determine nationality or region with blades as far as I have known. This is usually compounded by the often constant remounting, refurbishing and sometimes entire reprofiling in their working lives.