Ethnographic bayonets question

[Aleksey G.]

Hola guys!
How are you. Hope you'all are well.
Wanted to ask a question:
Does anyone have any examples of how ethnographic blades were ever married to firearms, become bayonets sort-a speak. Any regions are welcome, any method of attachment to gun...

Just to start of: There are what they call "yataghan bayonets" (picture below) which are much later, and you cant call them ehtographic I guess, yataghan name prob stuck only cause of the blade profile, or maybe there were earlier versions for example that had real yat blades...

Thank you guys in advance for any info.
Aleksey

[stephen wood]

...a very interesting subject. There was certainly a fascination with the yataghan in France at the time that the first yataghan bayonets appeared - the art of the time is full of them.

I think that the best online resource is here .

I have always wondered what happened to the thousands of sword bayonets which were captured with Remington rolling-block rifles by Mahdist forces.

[Aleksey G.]

Thank you Stephen for your post.
Guys? any one else have any info?
Any region or method of attachment to a firearm?
Any ethnographic blade serving as a bayonet.

[Rick]

Kukri bayonet .
It's an interesting creature .
Spiral has an early example .

Got a picture, Spiral ?

[Jim McDougall]

In colonial times European armies often had great respect for ethnic and native forces who fought against them with valor, and admired not only thier stamina in battle but the weapons they used. In many cases they adopted thier own examples or versions of these weapons, for example this was the case with the introduction of the mameluke sabre into British, French and even American military officers sabres. In the British Raj there were countless examples of the hybridization of British and Indian edged weapons.

The British Army respected the Nepalese Gurkhas above all, and developed regiments of these fierce warriors into thier ranks. Eventually the tribally distinct 'kukri' became produced by British manufacturers as regulation weapons, and of course the bayonets as well as mentioned.

In this same sense, the French much admired the Berber warriors in Algeria and in 1831 created special units of Zouaoua Berbers of the Jurjura regions in Kabylia for infantry. By 1842, the use of sword type bayonets and the type with yataghan (for its similarity to the recurved blade on the Ottoman sword by that name) came into use. In the M1866 Chassepot rifle, the same style 'yataghan' blade was used. While the blade style reflected again, the Ottoman style weapon, and the uniforms were of the 'exotic oriental' fashion, the use of these yataghan bayonets was universally applied. These units, which became known as 'Zouaves' were brought into American military in Union forces during the Civil War, and similarily fashioned units were used by the Polish/Lithuanian forces against Russia in the 1880s.

Although not ethnographic weapons per se, these regulation bayonets do reflect ethnographic origins, and via that association certainly show an interesting perspective. Despite the obvious disparity often reflected in contemporary narratives concerning these conflicts, there was indeed a deep respect and admiration for the native warriors the colonial forces faced.

I cannot think of examples beyond the kukri and yataghan forms, but it would be interesting to see others.

It should be noted as well that the Spanish plug bayonet was still produced in its original form long after its prescribed use had ceased, and used as a hunting weapon. The use of the bayonet was primarily secondary with the use of single shot guns which left the individual unarmed until he had time to reload. Obviously in a combat melee or attack by a wounded animal in the hunt, this was unlikely.

[Berkley]

British (primarily British Indian) manufacture of kukris in large quantities was a 20th century phenomenon necessitated by the large number of Gurkhas who served in both World Wars. The extremely rare "kukri" bayonets were genuine Nepalese ethnographic weapons produced in the 19th century.
From Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walter:

[T]he chupi bayonets (the so-called 'kukri bayonets')...have attained a notoriety that was completely disproportionate to their numbers.... Variations in detail suggest that the bayonets were made individually, over a considerable period of time.... Most have the suggestion of a 'T'-back, occasionally with narrow fullers immediately beneath the back. The sockets have 'L'-slots and East India Company-type springs...that enabled most of the bayonets to fit a selection of Nepalese-made...barrels. This reveals that they date from the flintlock era. However, the socket diameters varied...and it would have been necessary to match individual bayonets to individual muskets...

When Jang Bahadur left to visit Britain late in 1850, at least one witness testified that the prime minister had 'stepped into the verandah overlooking the garden [of his lodgings in Calcutta], on the broad path of which a long line of bright and terrible bayonets (shaped like the Kookree, or Nepaulese knife - a very handsome carved [sic] weapon glittered in the sun...' This confirms that the men of the escort were carrying Windus-type flintlock muskets and chupi bayonets, but it is believed that only a handful of battalions were equipped with them.

[Bryan.H]

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you mean, but I saw this on Fagan's site a while ago. I've never seen one in museums or books before.

18TH CENTURY INDIAN BAYONET, SANGIN, FOR MATCHLOCK MUSKET





http://faganarms.com/recently_sold.aspx

[Bryan.H]

The Zombie killer!

[Aleksey G.]

Guys, thank you for your posts, pretty cool stuff.
Does zombie killer run on gas? doesnt seem like there is a lot of gastank there.
actually now I see some wiring so probably a battery
************************
It doesn seem like there is a lot of information out there on ethnographic bayonets, or even just ehnograhic blades being afixed on the rifles.
I was hoping for some juicy pictures of moro krisses, yataghans, or maybe even an occasional afgani khyber knife crudely afixed on the rifles

[Jim McDougall]

Getting back to the question, as we all know, material on ethnographic weapons is in itself challenging to find, let alone discussion on the use of the bayonet or attaching ethnographic edged weapons to gun blades in this manner. I think it is important to remember that for the most part, the use of firearms was a European developed situation militarily (despite the obviously well known circumstances of early development in China etc.). In this same context came the use of the bayonet with the use of the gun.

In most ethnographic cases in colonial conflicts, native warriors primary weapons were edged weapons, bow and arrow, spears etc. These were of course weapons readily available, did not require ammunition or powder, nor was training in thier use typically present. Naturally, there was a distinct awareness of the advantages of firearms, and efforts were made to acquire these weapons, as shown by capture of Remington guns by the Mahdists in the Sudan.
In most cases ethnographically, where firearms were indeed used, the use of secondary weapons such as yataghans, daggers and various sidearms were independant of the firearm, which would have been seen as an encumbrance when using the other weapons. There were no drills for bayonet type fighting, so these would not have been so applied.
In Arabia, the use of matchlock guns is known to have been traditionally maintained into the 20th century by the Bedouins, but as far as I know, there are no known examples of bayonets or weapons used as such. The sword in much of Bedouin warfare, remained a primary weapon for combat late into the century despite the use of the matchlock in a tactical sense.

In the case of the Indian matchlock bayonets, these are indeed mentioned in books (Elgood, p.165); Egerton #353 and a Wallis & Wallis sale in 2003 had one with red and white horsehair plume. Tipu Sultan's forces are known to have had some of these, decorated much in his fashion. It should be pointed out that these seem to have developed from European contact with EIC forces, and emulating the use of bayonets on thier guns.

Excellent post Berkeley!!! on the Nepalese 'chupi' , and again, these were developed in response to exposure to British military drill, and while they are 'ethnographic' in the sense that they are exclusive to these Gurkha units, they are produced in military fashion using the L lock and EIC type springs.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Rick

Kukri bayonet .
It's an interesting creature .
Spiral has an early example .

Got a picture, Spiral ?

Afraid its now with a very serios bayonet collecter who wanted it more than I did now Rick. I guess I eventualy reached the point of thinking its a chupri bayonet, not a kukri bayonet. {there even rarer!}

Ill look up some of my old pics to help illustrate though, may take a few days though. {so many pics so little time. }

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...a very interesting subject. There was certainly a fascination with the yataghan in France at the time that the first yataghan bayonets appeared - the art of the time is full of them.

I think that the best online resource is here .

I have always wondered what happened to the thousands of sword bayonets which were captured with Remington rolling-block rifles by Mahdist forces.

Interesting question, and as always, when I get curious I start looking things up. So far somewhat inconclusive, but the Egyptian Army apparantly had indeed ordered Remington rifles in 1868 which became known as the M1868 Egyptian Remington rolling block rifle, by 1876 there were as many as 60,000 of these delivered. It appears they used a yataghan style sword bayonet modelled after the French Chassepot type bayonet.
These forces also had Martini Henry muskets which originally had the M1876 socket type bayonets. There were apparantly Sniders in some degree, which had similar sword bayonets, but numbers are not clear.

When the poorly armed rabble for the Mahdi overtook Egyptian forces in the early 1880s in several conflicts, they indeed took what are described as large numbers of arms and ammunition. I had assumed the Mahdist forces were not drilled in the use of these weapons, but accounts indicate they actually were.

After the fall of Khartoum, it is interesting to consider what indeed might have become of these captured arms, but it is said that by the time of the British campaigns of 1898, the Khalifa had assembled as many as 60,000 warriors. While descriptions note the profound presence of course of spears and swords, there were some 15,000 shoulder arms dispersed through the ranks of these forces. These were described as poorly maintained, but no mention is made whether these were accompanied by bayonets.

These sword bayonets, if still among these arms, perhaps were returned to stores as the use of these guns continued in the Egyptian army.

[sirupate]

When Bhess Narayan Dahal (the curator of the National Museum, Kathmandu, Nepal) took me round in 2008 talking me through the various weapons, I took some pics of the kukri style bayonets, I hope they are of some use;
Bhess below;

Kukri style Bayonets below;

[tom hyle]

Yatagan bayonets are actually pretty traditional for old-school 18th or earlier 19th (here's the trick) salawar yatagans. Before they became so wide-based, they already had the double curve.
Do you know what a sumpitan is? It is a Bornean hardwood blowgun drilled from one piece by a two-man team (Amazonian blowguns are bound up out of two hollowed channels), and scarf-joined to its tip is a whipped-on tanged spear blade. The tip of the tang is bent at a right angle and keyed to the blowgun.

[tom hyle]

From what I read, bayonets were originally hunting weapons, rather than for intraspecie violence.