DUTCH BRING BACK KERIS

asomotif · 12th September 2013, 11:45 PM

I bought this keris from a dutch family.
The owner was mid 40's and the keris once belonged to her grandfather.
So it probably came from Indonesia just before or just after WW2.

I must say that such a bring back keris confuses me.
The blade is very simple. is it sumatra ? bugis ? or even malay ?
The fit in the scabbard is perfect.

Please give me your opinion / comments.

Sajen · 13th September 2013, 12:53 AM

Hi Willem,

congrats, nice keris. Blade is sepokal form, strong Bugis influence and I am sure that the blade will show after etching a nice pamor, maybe ujung gunung.
Would place this keris somewhere between Sumatra and Peninsula. Could be a Bugis Riau keris.

Do you get a hilt and pendokok with it? Good worked blade IMO.

Regards,

Detlef

asomotif · 13th September 2013, 06:53 PM

Hello Detlef,

Thank you for the help.
Sepokal. Bugis influence .
But if I check other sepokal blades I see that they often have the blade edges that are so typical of bugis blades.

So , would we call this blade Bugis ? or can it be another area ?

Jean · 14th September 2013, 11:02 AM

I fully agree with Sajen and would also attribute this kris to Bugis Riau but am open to other opinions. Not all Bugis blades have gusen on the edges!
Regards

asomotif · 14th September 2013, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

I fully agree with Sajen and would also attribute this kris to Bugis Riau but am open to other opinions. Not all Bugis blades have gusen on the edges!
Regards

Thank you Jean.

I guess I will start cleaning the blade and see if I can trace some pamor

Jean · 15th September 2013, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Thank you Jean.

I guess I will start cleaning the blade and see if I can trace some pamor

Hello Willem,
I believe that you will see some pamor if you clean and stain the blade properly, see attached examples of Bugis blades after and before treatment ...

Regards

asomotif · 20th September 2013, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Willem,
I believe that you will see some pamor if you clean and stain the blade properly,

Hello Jean,

I do not have the skills and material to do a warangan stain.
I have stained the blade with lemon juice for approx 24 hours an got the results as below.

In my opinion their is no pamor in this blade. What do you think ?

Bestregards,
Willem

Sajen · 21st September 2013, 01:01 AM

Hello Willem,

seems that you are correct! When I am you I would bath the blade inside the lemon juice until all rust spots are removed and would let the blade in this status.
In my opinion the pamorless is a sign that it is a Malay blade.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 21st September 2013, 10:42 AM

Hello Willem,
Hum, the blade is well cleaned and no traces of pamor indeed! I fully agree with Sajen.
Best regards
Jean

Jean · 21st September 2013, 10:57 AM

Hello Willem,
This kris is probably originating from East Sumatra and the blade is different from yours (short gandik, ganja iras, etc) but it also has no pamor.
Regards

David · 21st September 2013, 04:44 PM

Well, i'm not so sure that the pamorless blade is a sign of origin, since pamorless blades can be found from just about anywhere, but to my eyes this looks more from the peninsula then Sumatra.

Jean · 21st September 2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'm not so sure that the pamorless blade is a sign of origin, since pamorless blades can be found from just about anywhere, but to my eyes this looks more from the peninsula then Sumatra.

Hi David,
If you mean my kris, its origin has been attributed to Jambi by the previous owners but I am not sure and fully open to other opinions. The blade is quite peculiar, it was treated by warangan which gives it this dark colour.

Best regards

Sajen · 21st September 2013, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,
If you mean my kris, its origin has been attributed to Jambi by the previous owners but I am not sure and fully open to other opinions. The blade is quite peculiar, it was treated by warangan which gives it this dark colour.

Best regards

Hello Jean,

the blade look like a Palembang blade, have a very similar iras keris in my collection.
I think David relating to the keris in question.

Best,

Detlef

Sajen · 21st September 2013, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'm not so sure that the pamorless blade is a sign of origin, since pamorless blades can be found from just about anywhere, but to my eyes this looks more from the peninsula then Sumatra.

Hello David,

of course you are correct!

But the complete shape of the blade plus the "kelengan" let me think in this direction. And it seems that we agree at this point.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 21st September 2013, 09:54 PM

Yes Jean, i was referring to Willem's keris, not yours. And to me, both the blade and the sheath always seemed more peninsula than Sumatran. That "flat" ivory buntet on the sheath looks much more like peninsula examples i have seen. The very boldly defined gandik and the meaty pesi looks more like what i would expect from a peninsula piece.

David · 22nd September 2013, 10:34 PM

It's come to my attention that Willem is currently selling this keris, so this discussion is closed until a sale is completed or it comes off the market.

12th September 2013, 11:45 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	DUTCH BRING BACK KERIS I bought this keris from a dutch family. The owner was mid 40's and the keris once belonged to her grandfather. So it probably came from Indonesia just before or just after WW2. I must say that such a bring back keris confuses me. The blade is very simple. is it sumatra ? bugis ? or even malay ? The fit in the scabbard is perfect. Please give me your opinion / comments. Attached Images

21st September 2013, 10:57 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Willem, This kris is probably originating from East Sumatra and the blade is different from yours (short gandik, ganja iras, etc) but it also has no pamor. Regards Attached Images

13th September 2013, 12:53 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Willem, congrats, nice keris. Blade is sepokal form, strong Bugis influence and I am sure that the blade will show after etching a nice pamor, maybe ujung gunung. Would place this keris somewhere between Sumatra and Peninsula. Could be a Bugis Riau keris. Do you get a hilt and pendokok with it? Good worked blade IMO. Regards, Detlef

13th September 2013, 06:53 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Detlef, Thank you for the help. Sepokal. Bugis influence . But if I check other sepokal blades I see that they often have the blade edges that are so typical of bugis blades. So , would we call this blade Bugis ? or can it be another area ?

14th September 2013, 11:02 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I fully agree with Sajen and would also attribute this kris to Bugis Riau but am open to other opinions. Not all Bugis blades have gusen on the edges! Regards

21st September 2013, 01:01 AM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Willem, seems that you are correct! When I am you I would bath the blade inside the lemon juice until all rust spots are removed and would let the blade in this status. In my opinion the pamorless is a sign that it is a Malay blade. Regards, Detlef

21st September 2013, 10:42 AM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Willem, Hum, the blade is well cleaned and no traces of pamor indeed! I fully agree with Sajen. Best regards Jean

21st September 2013, 04:44 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Well, i'm not so sure that the pamorless blade is a sign of origin, since pamorless blades can be found from just about anywhere, but to my eyes this looks more from the peninsula then Sumatra.

21st September 2013, 09:54 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Yes Jean, i was referring to Willem's keris, not yours. And to me, both the blade and the sheath always seemed more peninsula than Sumatran. That "flat" ivory buntet on the sheath looks much more like peninsula examples i have seen. The very boldly defined gandik and the meaty pesi looks more like what i would expect from a peninsula piece.

22nd September 2013, 10:34 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	It's come to my attention that Willem is currently selling this keris, so this discussion is closed until a sale is completed or it comes off the market.