European Officers Mining Officers Sword?

Cathey · 27th August 2021, 09:16 AM

Hi Guys

I am in the process of researching an early English Artificers sword, when I came across a similar sword all be it a little latter that belongs to a friend of mine.

I am hoping someone can give us both more information of what they think this latter sword is and where it comes from. It looks like the second set of dates on the scabbard have been added much latter and there is also a name that has been scratched into the blade at some point. On one of the pictures, I show my older English Version along side this one for comparison.

I don’t recognise the crest which is on the scabbard and the blade either.

Any assistance will be most welcome.

corrado26 · 27th August 2021, 02:17 PM

The crest is that of the kingdom of Saxony, but the sabre is certainly not a military one but a civilan item of a higher ranking employee of mining company. The eagle with the monogramm "FR" (Fridericus Rex) at his chest is the Prussian eagle but I have no idea what this should stand for. Perhaps the owner came from Saxony - as the sabre has been made in Dresden - but the mining company was a Prussian one.

Cathey · 28th August 2021, 08:43 AM

Thanks for that information, are you able to make out the retailer name on the back of the blade?

Cheers Cathey

corrado26 · 4th September 2021, 07:08 PM

I hope this helps a little bit: Ernst Ludwig Voigt, Hauptzeughaus-Schwertfeger (sword sweeper?), Frauengasse 1 in Dresden in the years 1826-1854.

Jim McDougall · 4th September 2021, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I hope this helps a little bit: Ernst Ludwig Voigt, Hauptzeughaus-Schwertfeger (sword sweeper?), Frauengasse 1 in Dresden in the years 1826-1854.

Udo, you are amazing at finding this important information!

fernando · 5th September 2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Udo, you are amazing at finding this important information!

Yes indeed; this and many other

.

corrado26 · 6th September 2021, 12:43 PM

I sent the foto to the Bergbaumuseum at Oelsnitz/Saxony and got the following German answer right now, hope your translater will be in good order.

Es handelt sich um einen Säbel für einen höheren Bergbeamten. Das Gefäß ist durchaus bekannt, sowohl von zwei Seitengewehren, wie sie für untere Beamten- und Offiziantenränge üblich waren, als auch von einem Säbel, der sich im Bestand der Städtischen Museen Zwickau befindet (leider dieser mit falscher Scheide). Interessant sind die beiden aufgelöteten Wappen mit den Jahreszahlen, die sich ja ganz offenbar auf Benutzung in Sachsen und Preußen beziehen. Da der Säbel selbst aber bereits das Kgl. Sächs. Wappen auf der Klinge trägt, muß er jünger als 1806 sein. Das Gefäß selbst ist jedoch mit früheren Klingen nachweisbar, so bei den bekannten Seitengewehren. Spätestens mit den 1830er Jahren entfielen die Griffgarnituren dieser Art zugunsten der Löwenkopf-Ausführung für die damit ausgestatteten Beamtenränge. Für die Seitengewehre lassen Sie sich noch nachweisen. Der Oberberghauptmann von Herder trug zwar noch einen Säbel mit einer ähnlichen Gestaltung des Korbes, aber hier handelte es sich um die Berginsignien im bekrönten Lorbeerkranz. Der Bügel lief allerdings schon in den Löwenkopf aus.

Es gibt noch eine Ergänzung, die den Entstehungszeitraum weiter eingrenzt: E. L. Voigt ist seit 1816 in Dresden nachweislich tätig gewesen, unter anderem als Schwertfeger am Hauptzeughaus. Die von ihm und seinem Sohn hergestellten Stücke finden sich gerade bei den Ausstattungsstücken für das Berg- und Hüttenwesen in Sachsen immer wieder. Das heißt, es sind sowohl Blankwaffen für den Erzbergbau, als auch den späteren – meist privatwirtschaftlich geführten – Steinkohlenbergbau entstanden und überliefert.

corrado26 · 13th September 2021, 02:01 PM

bump

fernando · 13th September 2021, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I sent the foto to the Bergbaumuseum at Oelsnitz/Saxony and got the following German answer right now, hope your translater will be in good order...

Udo, it should be so nice that you posted the text also in English, so that we may all be enlightened.
What you could do now is correct the flaws produced by the traslating engine, as you are obviously apt to

.
" It is a saber for a senior mountain official. The vessel is well known, both from two side guns, as they were common for lower official and officer ranks, and from a saber that is in the holdings of the Städtische Museen Zwickau (unfortunately this one with a wrong scabbard). The two coats of arms soldered on with the dates, which obviously refer to use in Saxony and Prussia, are interesting. Since the saber itself is already the Kgl. Saxon. If he has a coat of arms on the blade, he must be younger than 1806. However, the vessel itself can be detected with earlier blades, such as the well-known side guns. By the 1830s at the latest, the handle sets of this type were no longer available in favor of the lion head version for the civil servant ranks equipped with them. You can still prove yourself for the side guns. The chief miner von Herder still carried a saber with a similar design of the basket, but here it was about the mountain insignia in a crowned laurel wreath. The bracket, however, already ran out into the lion's head.
There is one more addition that further limits the period of origin: E. L. Voigt has demonstrably been active in Dresden since 1816, including as a sword sweeper at the main armory. The pieces made by him and his son can be found again and again, especially in the equipment items for the mining and metallurgical industry in Saxony. That means that edged weapons for ore mining as well as later - mostly privately run - hard coal mining were created and handed down. "

corrado26 · 14th September 2021, 12:40 PM

It is a saber for a senior mountain official. The vessel is well known, both from two bayonets, as they were common for lower official and officer ranks, and from a saber that is in the holdings of the Städtische Museen Zwickau (unfortunately this one with a wrong scabbard). The two coats of arms soldered on with the dates, which obviously refer to use in Saxony and Prussia, are interesting. As the coat of arms is already the royal Saxon one . it stands for the years after 1806. However, the vessel itself can be detected with earlier blades, such as the well-known bayonets. By the 1830s at the latest, the handle sets of this type were no longer available in favor of the lion head version for the civil servant ranks equipped with them. The chief miner von Herder still carried a saber with a similar design of the basket, but here it was about the mountain insignia in a crowned laurel wreath. The bracket, however, already ran out into the lion's head.
There is one more addition that further limits the period of origin: E. L. Voigt has demonstrably been active in Dresden since 1816, including as a sword sweeper at the Dresden arsenal. The pieces made by him and his son can be found again and again, especially in the equipment items for the mining and metallurgical industry in Saxony. That means that edged weapons for ore mining as well as later - mostly privately run - hard coal mining were created and handed down. "

27th August 2021, 09:16 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	European Officers Mining Officers Sword? Hi Guys I am in the process of researching an early English Artificers sword, when I came across a similar sword all be it a little latter that belongs to a friend of mine. I am hoping someone can give us both more information of what they think this latter sword is and where it comes from. It looks like the second set of dates on the scabbard have been added much latter and there is also a name that has been scratched into the blade at some point. On one of the pictures, I show my older English Version along side this one for comparison. I don’t recognise the crest which is on the scabbard and the blade either. Any assistance will be most welcome. Attached Images

28th August 2021, 08:43 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Mining Officers Sword Thanks for that information, are you able to make out the retailer name on the back of the blade? Cheers Cathey Attached Images

6th September 2021, 12:43 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	I sent the foto to the Bergbaumuseum at Oelsnitz/Saxony and got the following German answer right now, hope your translater will be in good order. Es handelt sich um einen Säbel für einen höheren Bergbeamten. Das Gefäß ist durchaus bekannt, sowohl von zwei Seitengewehren, wie sie für untere Beamten- und Offiziantenränge üblich waren, als auch von einem Säbel, der sich im Bestand der Städtischen Museen Zwickau befindet (leider dieser mit falscher Scheide). Interessant sind die beiden aufgelöteten Wappen mit den Jahreszahlen, die sich ja ganz offenbar auf Benutzung in Sachsen und Preußen beziehen. Da der Säbel selbst aber bereits das Kgl. Sächs. Wappen auf der Klinge trägt, muß er jünger als 1806 sein. Das Gefäß selbst ist jedoch mit früheren Klingen nachweisbar, so bei den bekannten Seitengewehren. Spätestens mit den 1830er Jahren entfielen die Griffgarnituren dieser Art zugunsten der Löwenkopf-Ausführung für die damit ausgestatteten Beamtenränge. Für die Seitengewehre lassen Sie sich noch nachweisen. Der Oberberghauptmann von Herder trug zwar noch einen Säbel mit einer ähnlichen Gestaltung des Korbes, aber hier handelte es sich um die Berginsignien im bekrönten Lorbeerkranz. Der Bügel lief allerdings schon in den Löwenkopf aus. Es gibt noch eine Ergänzung, die den Entstehungszeitraum weiter eingrenzt: E. L. Voigt ist seit 1816 in Dresden nachweislich tätig gewesen, unter anderem als Schwertfeger am Hauptzeughaus. Die von ihm und seinem Sohn hergestellten Stücke finden sich gerade bei den Ausstattungsstücken für das Berg- und Hüttenwesen in Sachsen immer wieder. Das heißt, es sind sowohl Blankwaffen für den Erzbergbau, als auch den späteren – meist privatwirtschaftlich geführten – Steinkohlenbergbau entstanden und überliefert. Last edited by corrado26; 6th September 2021 at 02:29 PM.

27th August 2021, 02:17 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	The crest is that of the kingdom of Saxony, but the sabre is certainly not a military one but a civilan item of a higher ranking employee of mining company. The eagle with the monogramm "FR" (Fridericus Rex) at his chest is the Prussian eagle but I have no idea what this should stand for. Perhaps the owner came from Saxony - as the sabre has been made in Dresden - but the mining company was a Prussian one.

4th September 2021, 07:08 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	I hope this helps a little bit: Ernst Ludwig Voigt, Hauptzeughaus-Schwertfeger (sword sweeper?), Frauengasse 1 in Dresden in the years 1826-1854.

13th September 2021, 02:01 PM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	bump

14th September 2021, 12:40 PM	#10
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,206	It is a saber for a senior mountain official. The vessel is well known, both from two bayonets, as they were common for lower official and officer ranks, and from a saber that is in the holdings of the Städtische Museen Zwickau (unfortunately this one with a wrong scabbard). The two coats of arms soldered on with the dates, which obviously refer to use in Saxony and Prussia, are interesting. As the coat of arms is already the royal Saxon one . it stands for the years after 1806. However, the vessel itself can be detected with earlier blades, such as the well-known bayonets. By the 1830s at the latest, the handle sets of this type were no longer available in favor of the lion head version for the civil servant ranks equipped with them. The chief miner von Herder still carried a saber with a similar design of the basket, but here it was about the mountain insignia in a crowned laurel wreath. The bracket, however, already ran out into the lion's head. There is one more addition that further limits the period of origin: E. L. Voigt has demonstrably been active in Dresden since 1816, including as a sword sweeper at the Dresden arsenal. The pieces made by him and his son can be found again and again, especially in the equipment items for the mining and metallurgical industry in Saxony. That means that edged weapons for ore mining as well as later - mostly privately run - hard coal mining were created and handed down. "