Fake Kindjal

ariel · 11th June 2008, 04:47 AM

Following our discussion of questionable Kindjals, I just wanted to show the one that exemplifies both the sophistication and the gall of modern "industry"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=012
On a small picture it appears kinda good.
Then you start looking...
1. The silver fitting at the bottom of the scabbard has a name of the master: Omarov. Very famous owner of a workshop in Vladikavkaz end of the 19th-beginning of the 20th centuries.
But... he never wrote his name down at that place or using a niello technique( always on the blade and deeply struck); handwriting is undescribably crude; the name is spelled without a "yat" at the end ( orthography post 1918). Obvious fake.
2. Look at the back of the scabbard: do you see faint whitish lines? This is a trace of the modern technique, when the ornament is transfered to the metal using photography ( for further embellishment)
3. The niello on the front of the scabbard is put using photographic outline ( like a sticker)
4. The hallmark is fake: no initials or Greek letter, the head is all wrong and the font of "84" is wrong. If this is "sterling silver", my cat is a lion.
5. The blade is obviously old and totally out of sync with the new-ish state of the scabbard.

A $3 bill is a genuine article in comparison!
I do not know who the "private bidder" was, but he overpayed ~ $959.01

ALEX · 12th June 2008, 12:43 PM

Nice illustration and explanation, Ariel. Thank You!
The whitish lines on the back of the scabbard are traces of the modern technique indeed, but I think this is a "zig-zag technique", whcih is often performed using a primitive screw driver like tool.

mross · 12th June 2008, 06:38 PM

Could this be a composite? Real blade with faked fittings?

ariel · 12th June 2008, 07:04 PM

Of course! I did not mention it because I thought it was self-evident.

fernando · 12th June 2008, 09:06 PM

Daghestani blade ?
Those marks are similar to some showing in E. Astvacaturyan's book, as being from Daghestani smiths.

ausjulius · 12th June 2008, 11:26 PM

ths type of thing is quite common ,
but it is not ,, that recent, maybe more some work of the soviet era,,
proably 30 or 40 years old ..
mostlikely somebody found an old blade and decided to have fittings put on it.
this thisn is even today very common :S..
when i worke din kizlyar wvery week swords would come into the factory that people wanted polished or sharpened, or wanted new silver fittings or a sheath or some such done on them,,
during communisim this was also just as common, although illegal.
owning the sword or dagger not doing the actual work ofcorse.. :P

ive seen alot of soviet era swords and knives to aspecialy old soviet era kindjals,,
i recall some chap brang several into the factory made during ww2 and used by dagestani solider during the latter days of ww2 , one was a small kindjal style dagger with a laminated wood handle and a carbon steel blade in a leather leather sheath like a knife. the other was a old folded steel kindjal...... with a textolite phenolic handle :O:O:O:O .. stronger than the old buffalo no doubt..

these things got polished up and sharpened and sent back to the owner ...
hell knows how many times the old kindjal had be rehandled :P

here is a pic of the laminated wood dagger proably made in ww2... sorry i havent a photo of the textolit handled kindjal, or maybe i have but id have to look for it........

oh also if anyone in interested in have some place some photos or working kindjals , not decorative ones, with waxed woolen sheath covers....... something youll porably never find outside of the caucasus.

11th June 2008, 04:47 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fake Kindjal Following our discussion of questionable Kindjals, I just wanted to show the one that exemplifies both the sophistication and the gall of modern "industry" http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=012 On a small picture it appears kinda good. Then you start looking... 1. The silver fitting at the bottom of the scabbard has a name of the master: Omarov. Very famous owner of a workshop in Vladikavkaz end of the 19th-beginning of the 20th centuries. But... he never wrote his name down at that place or using a niello technique( always on the blade and deeply struck); handwriting is undescribably crude; the name is spelled without a "yat" at the end ( orthography post 1918). Obvious fake. 2. Look at the back of the scabbard: do you see faint whitish lines? This is a trace of the modern technique, when the ornament is transfered to the metal using photography ( for further embellishment) 3. The niello on the front of the scabbard is put using photographic outline ( like a sticker) 4. The hallmark is fake: no initials or Greek letter, the head is all wrong and the font of "84" is wrong. If this is "sterling silver", my cat is a lion. 5. The blade is obviously old and totally out of sync with the new-ish state of the scabbard. A $3 bill is a genuine article in comparison! I do not know who the "private bidder" was, but he overpayed ~ $959.01

12th June 2008, 11:26 PM	#6
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	ths type of thing is quite common , but it is not ,, that recent, maybe more some work of the soviet era,, proably 30 or 40 years old .. mostlikely somebody found an old blade and decided to have fittings put on it. this thisn is even today very common :S.. when i worke din kizlyar wvery week swords would come into the factory that people wanted polished or sharpened, or wanted new silver fittings or a sheath or some such done on them,, during communisim this was also just as common, although illegal. owning the sword or dagger not doing the actual work ofcorse.. :P ive seen alot of soviet era swords and knives to aspecialy old soviet era kindjals,, i recall some chap brang several into the factory made during ww2 and used by dagestani solider during the latter days of ww2 , one was a small kindjal style dagger with a laminated wood handle and a carbon steel blade in a leather leather sheath like a knife. the other was a old folded steel kindjal...... with a textolite phenolic handle :O:O:O:O .. stronger than the old buffalo no doubt.. these things got polished up and sharpened and sent back to the owner ... hell knows how many times the old kindjal had be rehandled :P here is a pic of the laminated wood dagger proably made in ww2... sorry i havent a photo of the textolit handled kindjal, or maybe i have but id have to look for it........ oh also if anyone in interested in have some place some photos or working kindjals , not decorative ones, with waxed woolen sheath covers....... something youll porably never find outside of the caucasus. Attached Images

12th June 2008, 12:43 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Nice illustration and explanation, Ariel. Thank You! The whitish lines on the back of the scabbard are traces of the modern technique indeed, but I think this is a "zig-zag technique", whcih is often performed using a primitive screw driver like tool.

12th June 2008, 06:38 PM	#3
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Could this be a composite? Real blade with faked fittings?

12th June 2008, 07:04 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Of course! I did not mention it because I thought it was self-evident.

12th June 2008, 09:06 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Daghestani blade ? Those marks are similar to some showing in E. Astvacaturyan's book, as being from Daghestani smiths.