Keris sword (Not a keris)

[Anthony G.]

Hi

I am going to get this item. And I got questions to ask out of curiosity.

1: Is the sword modified from an existing keris bilah?

2: This is lombok type of keris sword?

3: Is the bilah a former keris?

[A. G. Maisey]

No Anthony, based upon what I believe I can see in the photo, this blade has been made to incorporate characteristics that are usually found in a keris, but in my opinion it is not a keris blade that has been altered.

However, if microscopic examination of the blade edges of the curve show distortion and/or cracking, then alteration might need to be considered.

Yes, it is Lombok, where it would be called a klewang.

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No Anthony, based upon what I believe I can see in the photo, this blade has been made to incorporate characteristics that are usually found in a keris, but in my opinion it is not a keris blade that has been altered.

However, if microscopic examination of the blade edges of the curve show distortion and/or cracking, then alteration might need to be considered.

Yes, it is Lombok, where it would be called a klewang.

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the valuable advice/info.

I also attached more photos with edge pictures.

[milandro]

forgive my ignorance, but is is this not a Javanese Pedang Lurus ?

We see a fair amount of such blades in there Netherlands.

If this is what I think it is the blade is not a repurposed kris blade but a specially made blade, slightly curved and the only similarity is the pamor (which is not unique to krises)


http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../pedang-lurus/

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by milandro

forgive my ignorance, but is is this not a Javanese Pedang Lurus ?

We see a fair amount of such blades in there Netherlands.

If this is what I think it is the blade is not a repurposed kris blade but a specially made blade, slightly curved and the only similarity is the pamor (which is not unique to krises)


http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../pedang-lurus/

nope, it is not

the dress is clearly Lombok, and the hilt is of Garuda Mungkur type, though heavily stylized to obscure the "animal shape" and to look more floral

and pedang lurus is truly odd name, as it was literally means "straight sword"

we did not use the terms "pedang lurus" here ... I think it was a mistranslation somewhere when Indonesian sword terminology got there

Javanese basically knew two type of swords, called pedang sabet (slashing sword) and pedang suduk (stabbing sword)

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Hi

I am going to get this item. And I got questions to ask out of curiosity.

1: Is the sword modified from an existing keris bilah?

2: This is lombok type of keris sword?

3: Is the bilah a former keris?

1. nope, it is originally made like that

2. yes

3. no

though the dress type is commonly found in Kelewang, I disagree that this was a kelewang

the existence of sogokan is the proof that this one is a variant of Sundrik

not the commonly seen, but not kelewang in my opinion

see the comparison specimen on the photo - belonged to a friend in Mataram

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

1. nope, it is originally made like that

2. yes

3. no

though the dress type is commonly found in Kelewang, I disagree that this was a kelewang

the existence of sogokan is the proof that this one is a variant of Sundrik

not the commonly seen, but not kelewang in my opinion

see the comparison specimen on the photo - belonged to a friend in Mataram

Thanks for sharing, it was interesting.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

and pedang lurus is truly odd name, as it was literally means "straight sword"

we did not use the terms "pedang lurus" here ... I think it was a mistranslation somewhere when Indonesian sword terminology got there

Thanks , always ready to learn something new

About " there" and its whereabouts.

I am not sure where " there" is though....the word Pedang Lurus is used in 47 previous threads ( 48 with this now) on the fora of vikingsword, and on line even some Indonesian sites use it, next to many auction houses around the world.

In Indonesia it may have a general meaning ut its use, incorrect though it is, is very well established, I think, from what I see .

[jagabuwana]

Milandro - though "pedang lurus" is commonly used here in this forum, in all my conversations in bahasa Indonesia or Sundanese with native speakers, swords have always been referred to as "pedang" and never pedang lurus.

My quick look in Google Indonesia would also have it that "pedang lurus" is almost always used on English-speaking sources to describe usually Javanese swords of various types, even ones with obvious sabre-like curves in them (as yours does), which to my ears is kinda odd given that lurus unambiguously means "straight".

The Indonesian sources I do see using the term to describe similar Indonesian/Javanese swords are sellers. Otherwise it used to describe swords of other cultures that are straight such as jians and claymores.

[A. G. Maisey]

"Pedang Lurus" is descriptive, it is not a proper name, but it is a generic term for any pedang with a straight blade, this klewang has a curved blade, it is not a pedang lurus.

Just as "pedang lurus" is a descriptive name not a proper name, so are the names "pedang sabet" and "pedang suduk/tusuk" descriptive names, pedang sabet is generic name used for slashing swords, "pedang suduk" is generic name used for thrusting swords.

There are many types of thrusting pedangs, and many types of slashing pedangs, all with different names.

suduk means stab, sabet means whip, in krama inggil sabet simply means "pedang".

A curved blade is used to slash.

A sundrik/cundrik is by definition a thrusting weapon.

This item under discussion is dressed as a klewang, thus it is a klewang, however, the blade has not been made in the typical form of a klewang.

It is usual that when any blade is in a particular form of dress the entire object takes the name of the dress, when the blade is removed from the scabbard further classification can be applied to the blade if necessary, however, in this case that further classification cannot be as a sundrik, because here we have a weapon designed to slash, not a weapon designed to thrust.

Sogokan can be found in various types of pedang, I have had several Javanese pedangs with sogokan & also kembang kacang. These features are not common in pedangs, but they do occur.

[milandro]

I understood that the first time, thank you for making it yet, clearer.

I was simply offering the reason why I used a term that is , fairly common, albeit not in Indonesia.

[David]

Wow, so much discussion on a blade just posted today. LOL! I like that!
But i am going to transfer this one over to the Ethno forum as it is not a keris.

[Gustav]

Funny to see it being sold again, and its price development.

As a previous custodian I can confirm it came out of Lombok.

[A. G. Maisey]

Perhaps the term "pedang lurus" depends upon the location it is used in, the people who use this term, and the context.

In my experience the term is widely used exactly as I have commented, ie, as a generic, often the "lurus" is omitted, & just pedang is used, the locations I have in mind are Central Jawa, Solo & Jogja, but also in East Jawa and in South Bali.

The people using the term pedang, or pedang lurus have been dealers, craftsmen and collectors in these areas.

The same, exactly the same, terminology is used with keris, with tombak, and with sticks that fall off trees:- to differentiate between a straight blade or stick and a waved blade or stick we use the word "lurus" in one instance & "luk" or "berluk" in the other.

The word lurus is an adjective and it is used as such.

It is not a noun.

Combined with the noun "pedang" it is an absolutely legitimate use of the word.

The actual name of a pedang is a different matter, often this affixation of a correct name can become a matter of discussion & disagreement, for instance, the basic differentiation between the pedang tusuk & the pedang sabet is that one is waved and one is straight, but that is not really a tight differentiation, it is better to think of the difference in terms of use:- a pedang tusuk (or suduk) is a pedang used to thrust, a pedang sabet is a pedang that is used to slash.

Sometimes a pedang sabet might be straight, but then we have the other names. From memory I think Harsrinuksmo lists around 7 or 8 common names for pedangs. Then there is the pedang kalawijan, and in Jawa this can be a pedang that bears features that are not commonly seen on a pedang, features such as kembang kacang or sogokan, so if we really do want to be pedantic about this matter, the pedang under discussion is Pedang Kalawijan.

But that is in Jawa.

In Lombok it is a type of pedang that is known as a Klewang. I have also heard it referred to in South Bali as Klewang.

It seems that Djelengga for one agrees with my understanding.

However, in general conversation with somebody in the dealer and general tosan aji community in Solo, Jawa, this item under discussion would be referred to as a pedang, any qualifiers would be added later and could be subject to discussion & disagreement.

[werecow]

I've also seen at least one of these listed as "pedang benkok", but actually it may be this exact one so I don't know if that is any help.

EDIT: Yeah, it seems to be the same photo.