Keris Sumatra ivory handle

Paul B. · 16th April 2018, 06:16 AM

Who can help me identify this Sumtran keris hulu (my guess is Lampung) ?
Clearly from (marine?) ivory with old patination.

Paul B. · 16th April 2018, 05:13 PM

It has a big odd (very round) peksi hole. Size: 11 mm.
This is not meant to be a walking stick handle is it?

David · 17th April 2018, 06:41 PM

I'm surprised that no one has responded yet Paul, but perhaps, like myself, they don't know what to say. It certainly looks like a keris hilt form and i agree that Sumatra is most likely, but frankly it doesn't seem to fall neatly into any style i have seen before. The rather large pesi hole is also a bit unusual, but i would still think it's intention was to be a hilt.
Frankly, while it does appear to have some age it does not seem to be too old. It has some yellowing and patina, but the carved lines are not particularly worn. Color and patina can be added to ivory easier than some other materials. I suspect this might be from the latter half of the 20th century.

Sajen · 17th April 2018, 07:46 PM

Hello Paul,

it's a plastic fake handle, send it to me and I dispose it for you!

Seriously, I would agree with you that it will be from Lampung or surrounding area. And when it is from sperm whale tooth (what I guess) it would explain the rather big pesi hole, the natural holes from this teeth are rather big, it will has had a peg from wood or other material with a smaller bore in the hole, I've seen this by whale tooth handles or very old, worn out handle holes before.
Other as David I think that this handle has a good age, I just compare the patina with whale tooth handles from my own collection. It's a very nice handle, congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 17th April 2018, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

And when it is from sperm whale tooth (what I guess) it would explain the rather big pesi hole, the natural holes from this teeth are rather big, it will has had a peg from wood or other material with a smaller bore in the hole, I've seen this by whale tooth handles or very old, worn out handle holes before.
Other as David I think that this handle has a good age, I just compare the patina with whale tooth handles from my own collection. It's a very nice handle, congrats!

Yes, the hole at the base of a sperm whale tooth is rather big, but generally bigger than this. This would have to be from a larger tooth to account for the bend of the hilt. The smaller teeth don't bend like that. So it would have to be cut out of a large tooth with a greater area to account for the shape of the hilt. These larger teeth have rather wide openings at the natural bottom.
Can you define what you mean by "good age"?

Sajen · 18th April 2018, 12:22 AM

Hello David,

you are correct about the natural holes by sperm whale teeth, i just was looking for an explanation and want to bring the stone running.

I think that the handle is minimum 80 years old, maybe older.

Regards,
Detlef

Paul B. · 18th April 2018, 02:28 PM

As far as I am concerned it has an old and so genuine colouration and the patination can't be faked.
So I assume it is at least 80 years old. Not a standard model.
As it isn't made from elephant ivory hairlines are hardly or not present.

David · 18th April 2018, 05:25 PM

Well, i'm not suggesting that this hilt is "faked", but patina and coloration on ivory can and has indeed been faked. It's done all the time and unfortunately part of the reason governments have recently moved to ban "antique" ivory as well as new.
But i do believe this hilt has some age. I wouldn't really push it much beyond 80 years though.

kai · 18th April 2018, 09:30 PM

Hello Paul,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I think that the handle is minimum 80 years old, maybe older.

I'm less optimistic than Detlef - this does not look like an old hilt to me based on stylistic details. I'd bet on a fairly modern example that has been stained to look old.

I'm at a loss regarding the size of the pesi hole - it doesn't look anything like a worn old one; I also don't think it's a natural cavity.

Regards,
Kai

David · 19th April 2018, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I'm at a loss regarding the size of the pesi hole - it doesn't look anything like a worn old one; I also don't think it's a natural cavity.

Yes, edges are just too sharp every where and that hole looks so precisely round without a chip to be seen around its circumference.

Paul B. · 19th April 2018, 12:37 PM

Welll these Bali handles have pretty sharp peksi holes but the handles are very old. Not the best indicator.

16th April 2018, 06:16 AM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Keris Sumatra ivory handle Who can help me identify this Sumtran keris hulu (my guess is Lampung) ? Clearly from (marine?) ivory with old patination. Attached Images

16th April 2018, 05:13 PM	#2
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	It has a big odd (very round) peksi hole. Size: 11 mm. This is not meant to be a walking stick handle is it? Attached Images

19th April 2018, 12:37 PM	#11
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Welll these Bali handles have pretty sharp peksi holes but the handles are very old. Not the best indicator. Attached Images

17th April 2018, 06:41 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	I'm surprised that no one has responded yet Paul, but perhaps, like myself, they don't know what to say. It certainly looks like a keris hilt form and i agree that Sumatra is most likely, but frankly it doesn't seem to fall neatly into any style i have seen before. The rather large pesi hole is also a bit unusual, but i would still think it's intention was to be a hilt. Frankly, while it does appear to have some age it does not seem to be too old. It has some yellowing and patina, but the carved lines are not particularly worn. Color and patina can be added to ivory easier than some other materials. I suspect this might be from the latter half of the 20th century.

17th April 2018, 07:46 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,793	Hello Paul, it's a plastic fake handle, send it to me and I dispose it for you! Seriously, I would agree with you that it will be from Lampung or surrounding area. And when it is from sperm whale tooth (what I guess) it would explain the rather big pesi hole, the natural holes from this teeth are rather big, it will has had a peg from wood or other material with a smaller bore in the hole, I've seen this by whale tooth handles or very old, worn out handle holes before. Other as David I think that this handle has a good age, I just compare the patina with whale tooth handles from my own collection. It's a very nice handle, congrats! Regards, Detlef

18th April 2018, 12:22 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,793	Hello David, you are correct about the natural holes by sperm whale teeth, i just was looking for an explanation and want to bring the stone running. I think that the handle is minimum 80 years old, maybe older. Regards, Detlef

18th April 2018, 02:28 PM	#7
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	As far as I am concerned it has an old and so genuine colouration and the patination can't be faked. So I assume it is at least 80 years old. Not a standard model. As it isn't made from elephant ivory hairlines are hardly or not present.

18th April 2018, 05:25 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Well, i'm not suggesting that this hilt is "faked", but patina and coloration on ivory can and has indeed been faked. It's done all the time and unfortunately part of the reason governments have recently moved to ban "antique" ivory as well as new. But i do believe this hilt has some age. I wouldn't really push it much beyond 80 years though.