Shamshir - Naga?

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 02:10 AM

Greetings fellow collectors.

I recently acquired this Qajar Shamshir with a serpent running down the blade. I understand that Naga’s are a thing in Indian (Hindu) mythology. May I ask. Does anyone have an understanding of the significance of the serpent in the Persian tradition, in regards to sword blades.

I wonder if the serpent was applied or somehow ground/hammered down from a thicker piece of Wootz.

Thanks.

Battara · 3rd July 2021, 04:35 AM

All I can say is that I have seen snakes on Qajar swords before.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2021, 04:46 AM

This is of course a Persian Qajar (revival piece as such arms & armor in this category are termed) version of early traditional swords. The term 'shamshir' is a Persian collective term for sabers which is typically associated with the curved blades with sharp point and most often of wootz.

Regarding the serpent, in Persian symbology, these typically represent 'Zahnak' which although an evil creature, but the salient factor here seems to be that it was said to be able to strike more quickly than the blink of an eye.
These serpents are seen in many Persian edged weapon blade motif, and there are some which have two heads.

Interestingly, these serpents are even seen on some 'kaskara' broadswords in Sudan, reflecting the profound influence of Persian weapons through of course religious beliefs there.

The note of 'nagan' (=snake) blades is indeed well known not only in India in Hindu and other religious symbolism, but characterized on many 'wavy' style blades such as in the keris and others.

Kubur · 3rd July 2021, 10:12 AM

Hi, Very nice Wootz blade, I think it's a dragon or Azhdaha. A similar blade is displayed in the MET catalogue if I'm not mistaken and the same sword can be seen in Rivkin's book on Eastern swords. It's mid 19th c.

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 11:27 AM

Thanks Jim,
In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is of course a Persian Qajar (revival piece as such arms & armor in this category are termed) version of early traditional swords. The term 'shamshir' is a Persian collective term for sabers which is typically associated with the curved blades with sharp point and most often of wootz.

Regarding the serpent, in Persian symbology, these typically represent 'Zahnak' which although an evil creature, but the salient factor here seems to be that it was said to be able to strike more quickly than the blink of an eye.
These serpents are seen in many Persian edged weapon blade motif, and there are some which have two heads.

Interestingly, these serpents are even seen on some 'kaskara' broadswords in Sudan, reflecting the profound influence of Persian weapons through of course religious beliefs there.

The note of 'nagan' (=snake) blades is indeed well known not only in India in Hindu and other religious symbolism, but characterized on many 'wavy' style blades such as in the keris and others.

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 11:29 AM

Thanks Kubir,
I will look for the examples you mentioned in the MET and Rivkins book on Eastern Swords. I don’t think I have that book yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi, Very nice Wootz blade, I think it's a dragon or Azhdaha. A similar blade is displayed in the MET catalogue if I'm not mistaken and the same sword can be seen in Rivkin's book on Eastern swords. It's mid 19th c.

mariusgmioc · 3rd July 2021, 12:14 PM

Hello David,

I have major doubts about the age of this sword. I suspect it to be a 20th century Indian/Pakistani panoply hanger.

First, the scabbard is a mixture of Turkish (stitched with visible silver thread), Persian and Indian (no chape) styles, with both the leather and the silver thread in too good to be true condition.

Second, the hilt (with lanyard hole) is a mixture of Persian and Turkish style, and the carvings do not appear to be Persian because of style and quality, while the applied gold (which doesn't seem to be koftgari) is in too good condition.

Third, the blade is not of Persian shape and appears to be of recent Indian/Pakistani manufacture, with some etched patination (exactly the patination I usually get when etching for wootz a blade that is not wootz).

1. Can you please send us detailed photos of the wootz pattern?!

2. Is the blade sharp?

3. Can you show us a detailed photo of the yelman portion?

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2021, 09:22 PM

[QUOTE=DavidFriedman;264049]Thanks Jim,
In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.[/QUOT

Just asides, the wavy bladed swords having to do with the naga (snake) in India and Asian, Indonesian cultures are seen as well in 'the west' in medieval sword blades often termed 'flamberge', taken to mean 'flaming sword'. This has to do with Biblical reference to the flaming sword which guarded the gates to the Garden of Eden.

In Viking and Germanic swords the pattern welding causing patterns in the steel of the blade were regarded as serpent like, and the brilliant paper "The Serpent in the Blade" by Dr. Lee Jones had to do with this perspective.

In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 10:52 PM

Here are some closer pictures alongside some other period Qajar swords/sabers in my collection. Perhaps these pictures will give a clearer perspective. It is in the best shape I have ever personally seen for a saber of this age. I believe it was either recently cleaned, and or kept behind glass or some such place. I do not believe at all that this is a modern piece, as I have seen many of those and they are horrendous at best.

I do appreciate your input though and look to get broader perspectives.

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 10:55 PM

More pics

mariusgmioc · 3rd July 2021, 10:57 PM

Thank you David for the additional photos!

The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz.

So I guess I was wrong.

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 10:57 PM

Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;264072]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Thanks Jim,
In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.[/QUOT

Just asides, the wavy bladed swords having to do with the naga (snake) in India and Asian, Indonesian cultures are seen as well in 'the west' in medieval sword blades often termed 'flamberge', taken to mean 'flaming sword'. This has to do with Biblical reference to the flaming sword which guarded the gates to the Garden of Eden.

In Viking and Germanic swords the pattern welding causing patterns in the steel of the blade were regarded as serpent like, and the brilliant paper "The Serpent in the Blade" by Dr. Lee Jones had to do with this perspective.

In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.

DavidFriedman · 3rd July 2021, 11:01 PM

Thanks, My apologies for lousy photos earlier. I’d be very unhappy if it was a modern one lol. I bought it to resell it, but I’m planning to keep this one as it plays delightfully. It’s funny how things change when we actually get to hold a sword. The silver handled one looks nicer to me in form, but wields very top heavy. I’m thinking cavalry maneuvers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Thank you David for the additional photos!

The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz.

So I guess I was wrong.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2021, 11:57 PM

[QUOTE=DavidFriedman;264077]Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future.

You bet David, and thanks for the additional pics, very impressive! and nice example!!

DavidFriedman · 4th July 2021, 02:05 AM

Thanks, it’s such a joy to collect these pieces of history.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;264081]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future.

You bet David, and thanks for the additional pics, very impressive! and nice example!!

Drabant1701 · 4th July 2021, 11:43 AM

Very nice collection david! Do you have it on the wall like that with all three swords and the shield? The shield btw is fantastic, just the right amount of wear and patina.

Philip · 4th July 2021, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.

They're probably more dangerous when they tempt you with apple clenched in fangs!

Philip · 4th July 2021, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz.

it's also consistent with a lot of Ottoman blades.

DavidFriedman · 7th July 2021, 07:03 AM

Thanks so much. I currently don’t have them on the wall like that, but on Chinese and Japanese sword stands. It would be nice to put them on the wall. That’s a good idea, if I can find a way to do it properly.

Yes the shield is a beauty. The Qajar work is very alluring to me. Such aesthetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Very nice collection david! Do you have it on the wall like that with all three swords and the shield? The shield btw is fantastic, just the right amount of wear and patina.

DavidFriedman · 7th July 2021, 07:04 AM

Ah, the illuminating apple that brings the knowledge of good and evil, muwahahaha

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

They're probably more dangerous when they tempt you with apple clenched in fangs!

3rd July 2021, 02:10 AM	#1
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	Shamshir - Naga? Greetings fellow collectors. I recently acquired this Qajar Shamshir with a serpent running down the blade. I understand that Naga’s are a thing in Indian (Hindu) mythology. May I ask. Does anyone have an understanding of the significance of the serpent in the Persian tradition, in regards to sword blades. I wonder if the serpent was applied or somehow ground/hammered down from a thicker piece of Wootz. Thanks. Attached Images

3rd July 2021, 12:14 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello David, I have major doubts about the age of this sword. I suspect it to be a 20th century Indian/Pakistani panoply hanger. First, the scabbard is a mixture of Turkish (stitched with visible silver thread), Persian and Indian (no chape) styles, with both the leather and the silver thread in too good to be true condition. Second, the hilt (with lanyard hole) is a mixture of Persian and Turkish style, and the carvings do not appear to be Persian because of style and quality, while the applied gold (which doesn't seem to be koftgari) is in too good condition. Third, the blade is not of Persian shape and appears to be of recent Indian/Pakistani manufacture, with some etched patination (exactly the patination I usually get when etching for wootz a blade that is not wootz). 1. Can you please send us detailed photos of the wootz pattern?! 2. Is the blade sharp? 3. Can you show us a detailed photo of the yelman portion? Last edited by mariusgmioc; 3rd July 2021 at 01:32 PM.

3rd July 2021, 10:52 PM	#9
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	Condition report Here are some closer pictures alongside some other period Qajar swords/sabers in my collection. Perhaps these pictures will give a clearer perspective. It is in the best shape I have ever personally seen for a saber of this age. I believe it was either recently cleaned, and or kept behind glass or some such place. I do not believe at all that this is a modern piece, as I have seen many of those and they are horrendous at best. I do appreciate your input though and look to get broader perspectives. Attached Images

3rd July 2021, 10:55 PM	#10
DavidFriedman Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 113	More pics More pics Attached Images

3rd July 2021, 04:35 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	All I can say is that I have seen snakes on Qajar swords before.

3rd July 2021, 04:46 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	This is of course a Persian Qajar (revival piece as such arms & armor in this category are termed) version of early traditional swords. The term 'shamshir' is a Persian collective term for sabers which is typically associated with the curved blades with sharp point and most often of wootz. Regarding the serpent, in Persian symbology, these typically represent 'Zahnak' which although an evil creature, but the salient factor here seems to be that it was said to be able to strike more quickly than the blink of an eye. These serpents are seen in many Persian edged weapon blade motif, and there are some which have two heads. Interestingly, these serpents are even seen on some 'kaskara' broadswords in Sudan, reflecting the profound influence of Persian weapons through of course religious beliefs there. The note of 'nagan' (=snake) blades is indeed well known not only in India in Hindu and other religious symbolism, but characterized on many 'wavy' style blades such as in the keris and others.

3rd July 2021, 10:12 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, Very nice Wootz blade, I think it's a dragon or Azhdaha. A similar blade is displayed in the MET catalogue if I'm not mistaken and the same sword can be seen in Rivkin's book on Eastern swords. It's mid 19th c.

3rd July 2021, 09:22 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	[QUOTE=DavidFriedman;264049]Thanks Jim, In fact this saber is extremely light in the hand and I feel dances, reminiscent of a snake. The wider bladed Kilij type silvery saber, also in the group picture, is much more too heavy and seems to be suited perhaps for cavalry slashes.[/QUOT Just asides, the wavy bladed swords having to do with the naga (snake) in India and Asian, Indonesian cultures are seen as well in 'the west' in medieval sword blades often termed 'flamberge', taken to mean 'flaming sword'. This has to do with Biblical reference to the flaming sword which guarded the gates to the Garden of Eden. In Viking and Germanic swords the pattern welding causing patterns in the steel of the blade were regarded as serpent like, and the brilliant paper "The Serpent in the Blade" by Dr. Lee Jones had to do with this perspective. In many Mexican knife blades the phrase, 'when this snake bites, there is no cure' is often seen.

3rd July 2021, 10:57 PM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you David for the additional photos! The wootz pattern is consistent with Qajar period wootz. So I guess I was wrong.

3rd July 2021, 11:57 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	[QUOTE=DavidFriedman;264077]Thanks Jim. My friend has some exquisite Kris and Indonesian Archipelago weapons with wonderful serpentine designs. I have yet to collect any, but probably will in the future. You bet David, and thanks for the additional pics, very impressive! and nice example!!

4th July 2021, 11:43 AM	#16
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Very nice collection david! Do you have it on the wall like that with all three swords and the shield? The shield btw is fantastic, just the right amount of wear and patina.