Indo Persian Helmet--top missing?

[naborow]

this is another of the 15 or so things we got in a swap some 15 years ago from a family of someone who was in India in 1906. I have been looking on this forum and on the internet and want to confirm:
Antique Indo-Persian Helmet, 19th C with plume holders and sliding nose guard, and chain mail.?
Is it muslim or hindu or possible to tell? Indian, I think? where?
It does not have a spire coming from the top. Was that originally part of this.? the decorative rosette on the top seems so different from the ones i have seen on the internet. If its actually missing, what does that do to value (allowed question??)
I assume the detail is brass??

[Atlantia]

Can you post a picture of the inside of the helmet and a close up of the chainmail links please.

[A Senefelder]

close up of the chainmail links please.

Yes please, it appears theres a chance the maille might be riveted which can be an aid in dating but cannot say with any certainty from these pics that this is so.

[AJ1356]

I believe it is Indian made in the "Persian" style, Since all these countries were most times ruled by the same dynasties, most of the arms and armour were about the same with little variations in specific areas. It is not missing the top spike, the top hole would be to put feather or plumes. At least that is how the hole looks to me, if the spike was broken off the hole would be jagged.

[CharlesS]

I do believe the top bulb would have contained a spike, either of the shorter Persian style or a more elongated form. If it were for plumes or feathers there would still need to be some sort of cylindrical holder on top, and not just a hole.

I can suggest a good restorer that can build this for you and correct the damaged mail. If interested just email me.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

Yes please, it appears theres a chance the maille might be riveted which can be an aid in dating but cannot say with any certainty from these pics that this is so.

Yes, the chainmail appears to be riveted links but held onto the bowl with simple butted links. (A close up picture is definately needed)
It's very much like the 'better' pieces coming out of India at the moment often being sold as 'antique'.
It doesn't have the look of an 18thC piece to me.
It could be modern.
I don't see any wear on the gold koftgari or any old patination.

What keeps the nasal bar in the upright position, I don't see any mechanism? If it's just friction then I don't see any wear on the koftgari on the bar itself, which you'd expect if it's been sliding up and down over many years.
Need some more info really. Definately interior shots, in fact some more close ups in clear focus would also be helpful.

Reattaching the chainmail is easy, even the missing riveted links can be bought on fleabay from Indian sources relatively cheaply.
Remaking the missing spike is also not a problem I've made them with nothing more than a bench-grinder and files.

[ALEX]

Good observation, Gene. I also believe this is a modern made Indian piece.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by naborow

this is another of the 15 or so things we got in a swap some 15 years ago from a family of someone who was in India in 1906. I have been looking on this forum and on the internet and want to confirm:
Antique Indo-Persian Helmet, 19th C with plume holders and sliding nose guard, and chain mail.?
Is it muslim or hindu or possible to tell? Indian, I think? where?
It does not have a spire coming from the top. Was that originally part of this.? the decorative rosette on the top seems so different from the ones i have seen on the internet. If its actually missing, what does that do to value (allowed question??)
I assume the detail is brass??

Salaams naborrow ~ Indo Persian yes more or less and probably the same time frame as late Qajar ~ 1900 or about . Certainly the style is for a spiked projection and the 3rd picture shows the wear from the original spike. It is Koftgari gold decorated.. see forum library for that technique. Not Brass. Nice lions and elephants around the rim. Consider restoring the spike.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation, Gene. I also believe this is a modern made Indian piece.

Thanks buddy

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams naborrow ~ Indo Persian yes more or less and probably the same time frame as late Qajar ~ 1900 or about . Certainly the style is for a spiked projection and the 3rd picture shows the wear from the original spike. It is Koftgari gold decorated.. see forum library for that technique. Not Brass. Nice lions and elephants around the rim. Consider restoring the spike.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Can you see any oxidisation in the recesses that would suggest an age of 100+ years? Like around the plume holders or nasal guard bracket? Looks like a little around the top boss, but again, not much and no signs of cleaning and the continual processes of care that an antique would have.
The only rust I can see on it looks relatively 'new'.
Sometimes these have a 'nut' brazed or welded under the top boss and the spike screws into it.
If it has a long traditional style spike (say 3-inches or so) you can then ship them with the spike removed. That means a smaller box, cheaper shipping, less chance of it sticking through the packaging and causing a problem en-route etc.
Might be an idea for Naborrow to peek into the hole with a torch and have a look.
Once we can see inside the helmet if there is no lining we should be able to see more.
I'm not 100% saying it's modern, but it does have that appearance at the moment.
More pictures will tell the whole story.

[Atlantia]

Just to add. Looks like gold and silver koftgari in the wide band around the rim.
The black areas are the silver.

Edit: added enhanced picture of probable silvered areas

[A Senefelder]

Yes, the chainmail appears to be riveted links but held onto the bowl with simple butted links. (A close up picture is definately needed)

I think i'm seeing this as well which raised questions for me but wasn't certain based on the pics.

[naborow]

Don't forget, this was purchased in 1906 in India. This is the time period for several Delhi Durbars and just after the 1903 one when lots of troops would have been paraded through the streets. I attach a pic of most of the other weapons excluding the shield posted earlier acquired at the same time, and for which i will have to ask help in identifying.

another question about the spike. On most helmets, would the opening have gone straight thru, or similar construction here, with the bowl solid???

thanks so much for your insights

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim,

Can you see any oxidisation in the recesses that would suggest an age of 100+ years? Like around the plume holders or nasal guard bracket? Looks like a little around the top boss, but again, not much and no signs of cleaning and the continual processes of care that an antique would have.
The only rust I can see on it looks relatively 'new'.
Sometimes these have a 'nut' brazed or welded under the top boss and the spike screws into it.
If it has a long traditional style spike (say 3-inches or so) you can then ship them with the spike removed. That means a smaller box, cheaper shipping, less chance of it sticking through the packaging and causing a problem en-route etc.
Might be an idea for Naborrow to peek into the hole with a torch and have a look.
Once we can see inside the helmet if there is no lining we should be able to see more.
I'm not 100% saying it's modern, but it does have that appearance at the moment.
More pictures will tell the whole story.

Salaams Atlantia ~ Your point about visible deterioration is accepted.. on the later picture I see some wear and general oxidation to the whole piece but I cant say how old it is precisely...The bracket I have it in is between 1900 and 1930 perhaps the back end of the Qajar period say 1920 though you may be more accurate with a later date. Trouble is we dont know what conditions it has been kept under... though the apparent history stated was early 20th C ... 1906 or that was when the family was in India from whom it was obtained.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Good evening everybody
I do not consider myself an expert, but the Indo-Persian helmets (Kulah Khud)
I have long analyzed for acquiring one "in fine" (Qajar)

I noticed no less than 3 points, to conclude that it is a Indian helmet from 20th century,
as well as AJ1356 had mentioned

- all the decor is, floral and animal, not a single mention in Arabic,
no talismanic or religious evocations, so it wasn't for a Muslim

- the sliding nose guard, does not have a system for adjusting position,
no screw as well as, all protects the sliding nose guard, are provided,
I mean for the Persian helmets

- I have a serious doubt about a "broken spike",
it's "IMPOSSIBLE", without to create a damage to the top bulb ,
to broke the spike, this bulb is typically Indian, not at all Persian
might be was a system to remove it for such circumstances ?
or the spike attach system was very weak ?
there is something very strange anyway ...

for comparison, here are some pictures, of a Qajar helmet from 18th/19th century
easy to obtain more pics, this helmet it's mine

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ Your point about visible deterioration is accepted.. on the later picture I see some wear and general oxidation to the whole piece but I cant say how old it is precisely...The bracket I have it in is between 1900 and 1930 perhaps the back end of the Qajar period say 1920 though you may be more accurate with a later date. Trouble is we dont know what conditions it has been kept under... though the apparent history stated was early 20th C ... 1906 or that was when the family was in India from whom it was obtained.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hola Ibrahiim,

We need Naborow to snap some more shots to completely put this to rest. My gut says modern, but I hate being the bearer of bad tidings without concrete proof so I hope I'm wrong.
I would like to see clear daylight pictures of:
Inside the helmet. Close-up on the top of the inside of the bowl.
Close-ups of the chainmail.
The nasal guard bracket.
The area under the nasal bar that cannot be cleaned.
And a description of what is inside the top spike boss.
A measurement of the riveted links daimeter (if they are riveted)

Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hola Ibrahiim,

We need Naborow to snap some more shots to completely put this to rest. My gut says modern, but I hate being the bearer of bad tidings without concrete proof so I hope I'm wrong.
I would like to see clear daylight pictures of:
Inside the helmet. Close-up on the top of the inside of the bowl.
Close-ups of the chainmail.
The nasal guard bracket.
The area under the nasal bar that cannot be cleaned.
And a description of what is inside the top spike boss.
A measurement of the riveted links daimeter (if they are riveted)

Best
Gene

Salaams Atlantia ~ Whilst I am flip flopping somewhat on the date ~ actually I shouldnt be comparing it at all with Persian as Dom quite correctly points out this is not a Muslim but Indian Hindu item ... I should be comparing it with other Indian examples. I have no reason to disbelieve the owner about the provenance and that as I originally put was about 1900 or thereabouts. You are right about the kola kuds condition ... It looks like it never got cleaned which some collectors adhere to but some prefer to clean up... after all, as a parade item it would have been clean for that purpose as is the nice helmet shown by Dom.. I would suggest a light wash/very light scrub with a soft brush in warm soapy water to remove the basic oxide that I think covers the entire project item... which will bring up the silver as well... and without losing any gold Koftgari .... I think this will help with the patina ... The inclusion of the elephants and Lions always indicates India especially with no Islamic inscription or geometry...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ Whilst I am flip flopping somewhat on the date ~ actually I shouldnt be comparing it at all with Persian as Dom quite correctly points out this is not a Muslim but Indian Hindu item ... I should be comparing it with other Indian examples. I have no reason to disbelieve the owner about the provenance and that as I originally put was about 1900 or thereabouts. You are right about the kola kuds condition ... It looks like it never got cleaned which some collectors adhere to but some prefer to clean up... after all, as a parade item it would have been clean for that purpose as is the nice helmet shown by Dom.. I would suggest a light wash/very light scrub with a soft brush in warm soapy water to remove the basic oxide that I think covers the entire project item... which will bring up the silver as well... and without losing any gold Koftgari .... I think this will help with the patina ... The inclusion of the elephants and Lions always indicates India especially with no Islamic inscription or geometry...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hola Ibrahiim,

As I said in post #6, It's very much like the 'better' pieces coming out of India at the moment often being sold as 'antique'.
I assumed people would realise I was saying it's Indian as Alex noted in post #7.

I can see the pictures Naborow has added in #13 now. they weren't showing last night for me, don't know why?
It does look to have some age on the inside, but that patina doesn't match the concealed areas of the outside, I must admit I'm on the fence about it as well.


Naborow, can you see anything inside the hole where the spike would have been?
Is there a hole in the bracket for the nasal guard?

[naborow]

I don't know what you mean by coming out of India recently, but we personally have had it sitting around in a box with the other stuff for about 20 years.

the hole at the top is about 1 1/2 cm deep and 1/2 cm wide. Its interior is oxidized and crusty. there is a 1/2 cm deep tube which appears to have some threads.

based on the pictures on internet of 1903 Delhi durbar, I think there was no spike, as all of the photos and paintings of the procession show plumes.

[trajan]

Just saw this thread--I have a nearly identical hemet with intact spike. mine came from the estate of a doctor who according to the family, brought back a bunch of stuff when he travelled india prior to WWI.

links are not riveted.

Here are pics.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by naborow

I don't know what you mean by coming out of India recently, but we personally have had it sitting around in a box with the other stuff for about 20 years....

It all depends on individual assessment of antique. In terms of antique weapons collecting, 20 years is new/modern, 50 years is recent. some collectors would consider 100 years recent:-) again, it all depends on what you collect and what level you do it at.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by trajan

Just saw this thread--I have a nearly identical hemet with intact spike. mine came from the estate of a doctor who according to the family, brought back a bunch of stuff when he travelled india prior to WWI.

links are not riveted.

Here are pics.

Salaams Trajan I think you have it nailed! Or spiked!!
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by naborow

I don't know what you mean by coming out of India recently, but we personally have had it sitting around in a box with the other stuff for about 20 years.

the hole at the top is about 1 1/2 cm deep and 1/2 cm wide. Its interior is oxidized and crusty. there is a 1/2 cm deep tube which appears to have some threads.

based on the pictures on internet of 1903 Delhi durbar, I think there was no spike, as all of the photos and paintings of the procession show plumes.

I don't know that I can phrase it any more clearly.
It's very much like the 'better' pieces coming out of India at the moment often being sold as 'antique'.
In other words, there are 'similar' helmets being made now in India and being sold as antique.

It looks to be very similar to the example shown by Trajan.
So we've got two apparently 100+ year old helmets which appear to be from the same workshop, both with perfect gold koftgari with no discernable wear.

Trajan's has butted chainmail. Your's has riveted chainmail connected with butted links (can you confirm that?).
This would mean that any strike against the chainmail would rip these weaker links and pull the skirt away from the bowl.

The thread that you can see inside the top spike boss will probobly be a nut which will have been brazed to the top of the bowl. There would have been a spike that screwed into it.
Try some long bolts to get the thread size then it's a really easy job to remake it and you'll know what size thread to cut onto the end.

As for dating it
In any event it's a nice thing which is well made and will display very well.

[trajan]

I look at it like all the ceremonial qajar period axes with silver koftgari--made exactly like older fighting types but ceremonial, made for display, and in alot of cases sold to rich turn of the century tourists.

the wootz tulwar, armor, and other odds and ends purchased were much older i look at it as an antique ceremonial piece--never was used so no wear.