Old Chain Mail, European Medival or Late Ottoman??

Oriental-Arms · 27th September 2009, 07:41 PM

I am researching a mail armor which was supposedly discovered in an old fortress in the Holy land. This fortress was extensively occupied in the last 1000 years by the Crusades, the Arabs, the Mameluks and later by the Ottomans and British forces until mid 20 C. I am trying to find out if it is a Medival European armor 13-14 C. or a later Ottoman armor.

Photos of the armor attached:

The shirt is short sleeves, large size and will fit a big man. The collar is cushioned with leather strips:

On close examination of the rings arrangements and as can be seen in the photo below it is composed of forge welded links and riveted links in an alternating rows order.

This technique of constructing mails is of European origin and was supposedly discontinued in the 14 C. The forge welding and the riveting are very well performed with great care, much better than I use to see on riveted oriental mail armor from later periods. Yet, the cushioned collar is also found on later Ottoman mail armors.

The condition of the mail is better than superb. I can hardly believe it is an early medial mail. It looks as if it was made in the last 100 years (but who would bother to build a very good mail with half riveted half welded links in the 20C. ??).

So what age it is??

I was not sure in which forum should I post this thread, so I am also adding a note on the Ethnographic forum and they are welcome to join.

A Senefelder · 28th September 2009, 12:00 AM

I have handled a shirt with a nearly identicle hook closure design for the split at the neck that was late 15th or 16th century Irish. The rings were of thicker wire at the neck, shoulders and chest, graduating out to thinner diameters the farther twords the extremities ( arms ) it got. I've seen this construction method before on other European maille, the idea being that the limbs move alot, making them a harder target to hit solidly so the wire could be thinner there, thus saving weight ( I owned at one point a Georgian maille and plate coat built the same way ). Something about this shirt says Turkish to me, maybe its the higher neck line, or something about the beefy rings, but it strikes me as Turk. Just a gut feeling. It is in excellent condition!

rand · 1st October 2009, 08:16 PM

Hello,

From the photo's it is a little hard to make a determination, the shape of the link, type of rivet head are important factors.

One thing I can definately say it is certainly not and early Persian shirt of the 15th-16th century as the shape of ring woud be different and the rivet heads would have a much different shape.

Another region I woud discount is Russia, Ottoman and Russian chain mail can often be similar but the weave is different and again the rings usually a different shape.

There are some metallurgical studies of chain mail in Gladious that would help for some early mails..

The rings do not appear to have much wear, usually that is an indication of less age but not written in stone.

rand

27th September 2009, 07:41 PM	#1
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Old Chain Mail, European Medival or Late Ottoman?? I am researching a mail armor which was supposedly discovered in an old fortress in the Holy land. This fortress was extensively occupied in the last 1000 years by the Crusades, the Arabs, the Mameluks and later by the Ottomans and British forces until mid 20 C. I am trying to find out if it is a Medival European armor 13-14 C. or a later Ottoman armor. Photos of the armor attached: The shirt is short sleeves, large size and will fit a big man. The collar is cushioned with leather strips: On close examination of the rings arrangements and as can be seen in the photo below it is composed of forge welded links and riveted links in an alternating rows order. This technique of constructing mails is of European origin and was supposedly discontinued in the 14 C. The forge welding and the riveting are very well performed with great care, much better than I use to see on riveted oriental mail armor from later periods. Yet, the cushioned collar is also found on later Ottoman mail armors. The condition of the mail is better than superb. I can hardly believe it is an early medial mail. It looks as if it was made in the last 100 years (but who would bother to build a very good mail with half riveted half welded links in the 20C. ??). So what age it is?? I was not sure in which forum should I post this thread, so I am also adding a note on the Ethnographic forum and they are welcome to join.

1st October 2009, 08:16 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Round link chain mail Hello, From the photo's it is a little hard to make a determination, the shape of the link, type of rivet head are important factors. One thing I can definately say it is certainly not and early Persian shirt of the 15th-16th century as the shape of ring woud be different and the rivet heads would have a much different shape. Another region I woud discount is Russia, Ottoman and Russian chain mail can often be similar but the weave is different and again the rings usually a different shape. There are some metallurgical studies of chain mail in Gladious that would help for some early mails.. The rings do not appear to have much wear, usually that is an indication of less age but not written in stone. rand

28th September 2009, 12:00 AM	#2
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	I have handled a shirt with a nearly identicle hook closure design for the split at the neck that was late 15th or 16th century Irish. The rings were of thicker wire at the neck, shoulders and chest, graduating out to thinner diameters the farther twords the extremities ( arms ) it got. I've seen this construction method before on other European maille, the idea being that the limbs move alot, making them a harder target to hit solidly so the wire could be thinner there, thus saving weight ( I owned at one point a Georgian maille and plate coat built the same way ). Something about this shirt says Turkish to me, maybe its the higher neck line, or something about the beefy rings, but it strikes me as Turk. Just a gut feeling. It is in excellent condition!