Persian/Armenian Qama Translation Help

trajan · 26th December 2007, 10:00 PM

Hello,

This is a large qama with a Persian maker's mark but the lettering appears Russian, perhaps Armenian. Does anyone recognize the language?

Thank you
Matt

ALEX · 26th December 2007, 11:01 PM

What a nice qama it is! The language is/looks Armenian (or Georgian) (not Russian for sure). Hopefully someone on the Forum will be able to translate.

ariel · 27th December 2007, 12:38 AM

It's Armenian.
There are not very many kindjals with Armenian inscriptions: thus, it is quite rare.
The best armourers of the 19th cen. Caucasus were ethnic Armenians ( Papov, Purunsuzov, Mamikonov, Khachatur), but they all were high class and made very tasteful and luxurious swords and daggers. Necessarily, their works followed the accepted level of decoration, ie. it was Caucasian, rather than Armenian.
The "in your face" Armenian work was likely done by the second-string masters or by those who worked in isolation ( Karabagh, Persian or Turkish Armenian diasporas etc.) Their works are cruder, with overdone ornamentation, not much free space. The marks on this kindjal are not truly Persian: they, too, were made by the same Armenian master in a Persian pattern.

trajan · 27th December 2007, 02:51 AM

Thank you Alex and Ariel. That was very informative!

Here are some pics of others I have in my collection--I would value your opinion.

The first 2 pictures: I was told is Armenian as well but Inscriptions are based on a language script and not actual words. It is bigger than the other at 34 inches--a true sword.

3rd and 4th picture: is a more Persian style but this one looks like real patterened steel in the fuller---some sort of sandwich construction??

The 5th and 6th picture: I was told also Armenian--decoration is very gold colored and much finer--also looks like a date ??16 in the Georgian calender.

The 7th picture: is unknown---large and wide and razor sharp--false damascus etch in fullers.

Last pic is of all pieces including some poorer ones for size perspection--bottom piece with broken handle is 17 inches.

I thank you for your help!
Matt

trajan · 27th December 2007, 04:16 AM

Hello,

Thank you Ariel and Alex for the information. I would appreciate your comments on the other pieces I have.

Here is a pic of other qamas I have kept over the years.

They range in size from 33 inches for the top example to 17 inches for the bottom piece. I've kept all the sword size ones with wide blades I've come across.

The first piece has been identified as armenian as well but inlaid by an illiterate smith.

Second piece is very wide and very sharp with false damascus engraving in the fuller---origin??

third piece was the one that started the thread.

Fourth-a wide heavy sharp qama

Fifth has also been called Armenian--heavy gold decoration and a Georgian calender date of 16??

sixth has real patterned steel in the fullers--some sort of sandwich construction??

Seventh--smaller 12 inch blade qama.

I appreciate any knowledge shared.

Thanks
matt

trajan · 27th December 2007, 04:37 PM

Can anyone recommend reference books on these types of weapons?

Thank you
Matt

TVV · 27th December 2007, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trajan

Can anyone recommend reference books on these types of weapons?

Thank you
Matt

Ariel and Rivkin are the resident experts (sorry if I am forgetting someone else), but before they jump in I will go ahead and recommend Astvatsaturian's "Оружие Народов Кавказа" - the best book on the subject in my opinion. It is in Russian only, and if this is a problem, then you may try to obtain a copy of Yurij Miller's catalogue of Caucasian arms in the Hermitage Museum, where the text is in Danish and English. It is only a catalogue though. Askhabov's "Chechen Arms" is another book in Russian and English, but it is only dedicated to Chechen arms and he is a little biased in his analysis, most of which is based on hearsay and legends.
Those are the three books that come to mind when it commes to kindjals and kamas, but I am sure Ariel and others will add to this list.

ariel · 27th December 2007, 06:13 PM

Check this one out. Some attribution errors and some junk, but overall, very nice examples of Shashkas and kindjals, , many from the Imperial Family.
Also, the best examples of Central Asian weapons I know! In English!!!
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/2680936/
I just got info from the publisher that PayPal is accepted, and the total ( with S&H) is only $75. I cannot vouch for that, but just relay info.
Their contact info is here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5673

Another hint: Go for Astvatsaturyan 2nd edition: much bigger, color pics. The firet one is thin, poor paper, low quality B&W. It is out of print, and one can only occasionally see it through Russian dealers. They will make you pay, though...

Otherwise, I am in full agreement re. Askhabov and Miller. Artzi has it for sale on his site, very reasonable price
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=313
Don't say I did not give you good ideas about New Year presents for your spouses and loved ones ( there may be a distinction)

'

26th December 2007, 10:00 PM	#1
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	Persian/Armenian Qama Translation Help Hello, This is a large qama with a Persian maker's mark but the lettering appears Russian, perhaps Armenian. Does anyone recognize the language? Thank you Matt Attached Images

27th December 2007, 12:38 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It's Armenian. There are not very many kindjals with Armenian inscriptions: thus, it is quite rare. The best armourers of the 19th cen. Caucasus were ethnic Armenians ( Papov, Purunsuzov, Mamikonov, Khachatur), but they all were high class and made very tasteful and luxurious swords and daggers. Necessarily, their works followed the accepted level of decoration, ie. it was Caucasian, rather than Armenian. The "in your face" Armenian work was likely done by the second-string masters or by those who worked in isolation ( Karabagh, Persian or Turkish Armenian diasporas etc.) Their works are cruder, with overdone ornamentation, not much free space. The marks on this kindjal are not truly Persian: they, too, were made by the same Armenian master in a Persian pattern. Last edited by ariel; 27th December 2007 at 12:51 AM.

27th December 2007, 02:51 AM	#4
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	qamas Thank you Alex and Ariel. That was very informative! Here are some pics of others I have in my collection--I would value your opinion. The first 2 pictures: I was told is Armenian as well but Inscriptions are based on a language script and not actual words. It is bigger than the other at 34 inches--a true sword. 3rd and 4th picture: is a more Persian style but this one looks like real patterened steel in the fuller---some sort of sandwich construction?? The 5th and 6th picture: I was told also Armenian--decoration is very gold colored and much finer--also looks like a date ??16 in the Georgian calender. The 7th picture: is unknown---large and wide and razor sharp--false damascus etch in fullers. Last pic is of all pieces including some poorer ones for size perspection--bottom piece with broken handle is 17 inches. I thank you for your help! Matt Attached Images Last edited by trajan; 27th December 2007 at 04:34 PM. Reason: pictures and descriptions in wrong order

27th December 2007, 04:16 AM	#5
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	qamas Hello, Thank you Ariel and Alex for the information. I would appreciate your comments on the other pieces I have. Here is a pic of other qamas I have kept over the years. They range in size from 33 inches for the top example to 17 inches for the bottom piece. I've kept all the sword size ones with wide blades I've come across. The first piece has been identified as armenian as well but inlaid by an illiterate smith. Second piece is very wide and very sharp with false damascus engraving in the fuller---origin?? third piece was the one that started the thread. Fourth-a wide heavy sharp qama Fifth has also been called Armenian--heavy gold decoration and a Georgian calender date of 16?? sixth has real patterned steel in the fullers--some sort of sandwich construction?? Seventh--smaller 12 inch blade qama. I appreciate any knowledge shared. Thanks matt Attached Images

27th December 2007, 04:37 PM	#6
trajan Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 68	qamas Can anyone recommend reference books on these types of weapons? Thank you Matt

26th December 2007, 11:01 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	What a nice qama it is! The language is/looks Armenian (or Georgian) (not Russian for sure). Hopefully someone on the Forum will be able to translate.

27th December 2007, 06:13 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Check this one out. Some attribution errors and some junk, but overall, very nice examples of Shashkas and kindjals, , many from the Imperial Family. Also, the best examples of Central Asian weapons I know! In English!!! http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/2680936/ I just got info from the publisher that PayPal is accepted, and the total ( with S&H) is only $75. I cannot vouch for that, but just relay info. Their contact info is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5673 Another hint: Go for Astvatsaturyan 2nd edition: much bigger, color pics. The firet one is thin, poor paper, low quality B&W. It is out of print, and one can only occasionally see it through Russian dealers. They will make you pay, though... Otherwise, I am in full agreement re. Askhabov and Miller. Artzi has it for sale on his site, very reasonable price http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=313 Don't say I did not give you good ideas about New Year presents for your spouses and loved ones ( there may be a distinction) ' Last edited by ariel; 27th December 2007 at 06:29 PM.