15th century short wrought iron barrels - why there are so many around

Matchlock · 20th December 2008, 05:41 PM

Historical illustrative sources prove that not all of these short wrought iron barrels were necessarily stocked invidually 500-600 years ago. Most of them probably formed parts of Gothic multibarrel guns - or should we refer to them rather as refined constructions?

Many of them were certainly just used as noisemakers (Böller) in later centuries.

Btw, I am afraid I will not be able to continue posting regularly for some time. I have to be busy writing a sample chapter of what I am hoping will become my next book and will really be a Magnum Opus. Thank you so much, Ed, my good friend!

Please be patient, Fernando, Jim, Richard (in alphabetical order) and all the others.

Michael

fernando · 20th December 2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Please be patient, Fernando, Jim, Richard (in alphabetical order) and all the others...

.

Matchlock · 21st December 2008, 03:50 AM

That's just so nice, Fernando ...

Thanks, buddy!

Michael

Pukka Bundook · 21st December 2008, 08:00 AM

I think Fernando says it well for all of us Michael!!

We will try to be patient, but withdrawl can be very difficult at times.....But we do wish you all the very best in writing your book!

Richard.

Bill M · 21st December 2008, 11:54 AM

Michael,

I also greatly enjoy your posts. You mention a "Magnum Opus." Is this some kind of "Large Caliber Opus?" Oh well enough of "Magnum" puns, but in a gun-oriented thread, what do you expect?

Anyway could you let us know, either here in the Forum, or privately in email a list of other, already published, books you have written that we may have continuing access to your knowledge in the long months ahead?

Kind regards,
Bill

Matchlock · 21st December 2008, 02:37 PM

Bill,

Thanks for your kind lines.

In speaking of a Magnum Opus I mean that this book should contain all the specified knowlegde on earliest arsenal firearms and their accouterments, ca. 1320-1720, that I have amassed in 30 years. It would be the work of my life, so to speak. I't's all just hoping for the time being, though and I will have to work hard to make it real.

Well, it does not really require a "list" to let you know that my first (and only, up to now) book in 2005 was on fine Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque receptacles for precious goods. It's in German:

Michael Trömner: Behältnisse für Kostbares 1500-1700.

It does unfortunately not have an ISBN and is available directly from me. The price is 65 euro, postage included.

Anyone interested, please let me know.

I'll provide some information in a separate link.

Best,

Michael

Matchlock · 21st December 2008, 03:41 PM

For an extensive preview of my book, please go here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post74584

Michael

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2008, 04:41 AM

Michael, I know your book will be outstanding, and I'm glad that you are compiling what has become your life's work into print. I know that your wonderful sharing here of such amazing pieces and accompanying artwork has added tremendous dimension to the success of this forum, and we have been blessed to have your contributions here.

You have shared here incredible pieces of history that many of us would likely not have access to, as even many museums I dont believe display such comprehensive examples....and certainly not with such knowledgable guidance to go with them!!

You have definitely promoted our exposure to and understanding of rare early firearms, and reinforced the importance of period artwork in studying these. Godspeed on your work!!! but please do keep us posted, and stay in touch here OK!!!

All the very best,
Jim

M ELEY · 27th December 2008, 11:26 AM

Once again, Michael, you have left us envious and wanting!! In one of your pics, I see you have a nice piece of chain shot. Not to distract from this thread, but perhaps you could post a pic of this very rare type of naval ordenance, so I can seethe inside with envy even more!!

Matchlock · 28th December 2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Once again, Michael, you have left us envious and wanting!! In one of your pics, I see you have a nice piece of chain shot. Not to distract from this thread, but perhaps you could post a pic of this very rare type of naval ordenance, so I can seethe inside with envy even more!!

Hi, M Eley,

If you can be patient I will have pictures taken. My old camera won't do any more and I have not gone digital yet.

For the time being I have posted a pic of another 16th century chain shot taken at the reserve collection of the Fortress Hohensalzburg, Austria. Please see new thread.

Michael

M ELEY · 2nd January 2009, 06:27 AM

Thanks, Michael. Sorry, I was away from the Forum awhile, but appreciate the pics from the museum you sent.

Matchlock · 5th January 2009, 10:13 PM

Thank you, Mark. Your words are much appreciated.

Michael

Matchlock · 4th May 2009, 05:53 PM

Another interesting little wrought iron barrel, of early 15th century form, contrasted to a source of illustration of a baptismal font of similiar three ring reinforced shape, an illumination from a Prague manuscript of ca. 1420.

Michael

fernando · 4th May 2009, 06:17 PM

Hi Michael,
Is that what you call baptism of fire ?

Now seriously ... great piece.

Fernando

Matchlock · 4th May 2009, 08:25 PM

Hi Fernando,

I can tell by your eloquence and love of puns (the latter shared between us) that you really appreciate the notion of a baptismal shower of flames as well as the smell of hellfire and sulphur!

Michael

Matchlock · 14th May 2009, 06:38 PM

From:

Flavius Vegetius Renatus: Vier Bücher der Rytterschafft (Four books on knighthood), Erfurt, Germany, 1511.

That's what I meant when I wrote that not all of those little guys that are still around in such amazing numbers need to have been stocked individually as parts of portable handguns.

Michael

Matchlock · 14th May 2009, 06:39 PM

One more.

Matchlock · 4th June 2009, 02:16 PM

A multi barrel cannon cart, 1436.

Watercolor from Johann Hartlieb's book on warfare of 1436 (Austrian State Library, Vienna, cod. 3062).

Michel

fernando · 4th June 2009, 05:16 PM

What traction ? probably horses.
Wouln't we like to be the drivers?

Fernando

Matchlock · 4th June 2009, 05:50 PM

Hi Fernando,

Horses or probably oxen, I think.

Rather than just being the drivers I think we should choose to be the gun men on board!

Cheerio,

m

Spiridonov · 8th April 2012, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Another interesting little wrought iron barrel, of early 15th century form, contrasted to a source of illustration of a baptismal font of similiar three ring reinforced shape, an illumination from a Prague manuscript of ca. 1420.

Michael

Michael, I have a friend from Ryazan who practice in target shooting with replicas of 15 century handgonne. He'd really liked this handgonne and wants to make replica of this for target shooting. He often read our forum But he doesn't have an registration on vikingsword. So, he asked me to know the length, outside diameter and caliber of this handgonne. May You help me with this question?

Matchlock · 8th April 2012, 06:57 PM

Hi Alexender,

of course I can!

The overall length is 11.4 cm, the (quite irregular) maximum outer diameter is 4.4 cm, and the bore is 14.86 mm. The diameter of the touch hole, again irregular as it was not bored but struck thru the white-hot iron with a hardened prick, is ca. 6 mm.

I'd like to see images of the replica!

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 8th April 2012, 07:54 PM

Thank You!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I'd like to see images of the replica!

He said that he wants to

He starting to make blueprints tomorrow

Matchlock · 8th April 2012, 09:15 PM

Please tell him to remember that the iron rings have to be forged separately, put on the barrel when white-warm and fire-forged!

m

Spiridonov · 8th April 2012, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Please tell him to remember that the iron rings have to be forged separately, put on the barrel when white-warm and be fire-forged!

m

He knows it

Matchlock · 8th April 2012, 09:54 PM

All the better!

m

Matchlock · 14th March 2014, 12:43 PM

This most remarkable device, probably made in the Thirty Years War and re-using short, older barrels, is called Sturmkolben or Igel in German, and I would be glad to know the English equivalent.
Such multi-barreled devices account for the wide presence of short 15th-16th c. barrels which were 'on the loose' again when the device was destroyed or given up.
Preserved in the Army Museum, Stockholm.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 14th March 2014, 01:06 PM

Similar samples in which older barrels are united are two 16th-17th c. Pechlanzen (pitch lances) in the Emden Armory.
The pitch incendiary mass was set afire and the lance was hurled by some sort of a catapult onto the shingled roofs of a besieged town where the delicate iron arrowheads got stuck, and the blazing tar/pitch would splatter around. Additionally, the short barrels are barbed for better contact with the roof shingles.
The saucer-like wooden plate at the bottom was meant to direct the splashing fire right onto the roof.

The measurements are:
overall length 2.25 m
width of the tar saucer 21 cm
weight 3.2 kg

I took these photos in 1987.

m

20th December 2008, 05:41 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	15th century short wrought iron barrels - why there are so many around Historical illustrative sources prove that not all of these short wrought iron barrels were necessarily stocked invidually 500-600 years ago. Most of them probably formed parts of Gothic multibarrel guns - or should we refer to them rather as refined constructions? Many of them were certainly just used as noisemakers (Böller) in later centuries. Btw, I am afraid I will not be able to continue posting regularly for some time. I have to be busy writing a sample chapter of what I am hoping will become my next book and will really be a Magnum Opus. Thank you so much, Ed, my good friend! Please be patient, Fernando, Jim, Richard (in alphabetical order) and all the others. Michael Attached Images

4th May 2009, 05:53 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another interesting little wrought iron barrel, of early 15th century form, contrasted to a source of illustration of a baptismal font of similiar three ring reinforced shape, an illumination from a Prague manuscript of ca. 1420. Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 4th May 2009 at 08:20 PM.

14th May 2009, 06:38 PM	#16
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Multi Barreled 15th Century Guns From: Flavius Vegetius Renatus: Vier Bücher der Rytterschafft (Four books on knighthood), Erfurt, Germany, 1511. That's what I meant when I wrote that not all of those little guys that are still around in such amazing numbers need to have been stocked individually as parts of portable handguns. Michael Attached Images

14th May 2009, 06:39 PM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	One more. Attached Images

4th June 2009, 02:16 PM	#18
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A multi barrel cannon cart, 1436. Watercolor from Johann Hartlieb's book on warfare of 1436 (Austrian State Library, Vienna, cod. 3062). Michel Attached Images

21st December 2008, 03:50 AM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	That's just so nice, Fernando ... Thanks, buddy! Michael

21st December 2008, 08:00 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I think Fernando says it well for all of us Michael!! We will try to be patient, but withdrawl can be very difficult at times.....But we do wish you all the very best in writing your book! Richard.

21st December 2008, 11:54 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Michael, I also greatly enjoy your posts. You mention a "Magnum Opus." Is this some kind of "Large Caliber Opus?" Oh well enough of "Magnum" puns, but in a gun-oriented thread, what do you expect? Anyway could you let us know, either here in the Forum, or privately in email a list of other, already published, books you have written that we may have continuing access to your knowledge in the long months ahead? Kind regards, Bill

21st December 2008, 02:37 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Bill, Thanks for your kind lines. In speaking of a Magnum Opus I mean that this book should contain all the specified knowlegde on earliest arsenal firearms and their accouterments, ca. 1320-1720, that I have amassed in 30 years. It would be the work of my life, so to speak. I't's all just hoping for the time being, though and I will have to work hard to make it real. Well, it does not really require a "list" to let you know that my first (and only, up to now) book in 2005 was on fine Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque receptacles for precious goods. It's in German: Michael Trömner: Behältnisse für Kostbares 1500-1700. It does unfortunately not have an ISBN and is available directly from me. The price is 65 euro, postage included. Anyone interested, please let me know. I'll provide some information in a separate link. Best, Michael

21st December 2008, 03:41 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For an extensive preview of my book, please go here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ed=1#post74584 Michael

22nd December 2008, 04:41 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Michael, I know your book will be outstanding, and I'm glad that you are compiling what has become your life's work into print. I know that your wonderful sharing here of such amazing pieces and accompanying artwork has added tremendous dimension to the success of this forum, and we have been blessed to have your contributions here. You have shared here incredible pieces of history that many of us would likely not have access to, as even many museums I dont believe display such comprehensive examples....and certainly not with such knowledgable guidance to go with them!! You have definitely promoted our exposure to and understanding of rare early firearms, and reinforced the importance of period artwork in studying these. Godspeed on your work!!! but please do keep us posted, and stay in touch here OK!!! All the very best, Jim

27th December 2008, 11:26 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Once again, Michael, you have left us envious and wanting!! In one of your pics, I see you have a nice piece of chain shot. Not to distract from this thread, but perhaps you could post a pic of this very rare type of naval ordenance, so I can seethe inside with envy even more!!

2nd January 2009, 06:27 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks, Michael. Sorry, I was away from the Forum awhile, but appreciate the pics from the museum you sent.

5th January 2009, 10:13 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thank you, Mark. Your words are much appreciated. Michael

4th May 2009, 06:17 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Michael, Is that what you call baptism of fire ? Now seriously ... great piece. Fernando

4th May 2009, 08:25 PM	#15
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, I can tell by your eloquence and love of puns (the latter shared between us) that you really appreciate the notion of a baptismal shower of flames as well as the smell of hellfire and sulphur! Michael

4th June 2009, 05:16 PM	#19
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What traction ? probably horses. Wouln't we like to be the drivers? Fernando

4th June 2009, 05:50 PM	#20
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, Horses or probably oxen, I think. Rather than just being the drivers I think we should choose to be the gun men on board! Cheerio, m

8th April 2012, 06:57 PM	#22
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Alexender, of course I can! The overall length is 11.4 cm, the (quite irregular) maximum outer diameter is 4.4 cm, and the bore is 14.86 mm. The diameter of the touch hole, again irregular as it was not bored but struck thru the white-hot iron with a hardened prick, is ca. 6 mm. I'd like to see images of the replica! Best, Michael

8th April 2012, 09:15 PM	#24
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Please tell him to remember that the iron rings have to be forged separately, put on the barrel when white-warm and fire-forged! m Last edited by Matchlock; 8th April 2012 at 09:54 PM.

8th April 2012, 09:54 PM	#26
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	All the better! m

14th March 2014, 12:43 PM	#27
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	This most remarkable device, probably made in the Thirty Years War and re-using short, older barrels, is called Sturmkolben or Igel in German, and I would be glad to know the English equivalent. Such multi-barreled devices account for the wide presence of short 15th-16th c. barrels which were 'on the loose' again when the device was destroyed or given up. Preserved in the Army Museum, Stockholm. Best, Michael Attached Images

14th March 2014, 01:06 PM	#28
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Similar samples in which older barrels are united are two 16th-17th c. Pechlanzen (pitch lances) in the Emden Armory. The pitch incendiary mass was set afire and the lance was hurled by some sort of a catapult onto the shingled roofs of a besieged town where the delicate iron arrowheads got stuck, and the blazing tar/pitch would splatter around. Additionally, the short barrels are barbed for better contact with the roof shingles. The saucer-like wooden plate at the bottom was meant to direct the splashing fire right onto the roof. The measurements are: overall length 2.25 m width of the tar saucer 21 cm weight 3.2 kg I took these photos in 1987. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 14th March 2014 at 06:46 PM.