The making of a kindjal

delor · 22nd May 2012, 05:22 PM

Dear friends,

some monthes ago, I had been authorized by the forum administrators to show you a brand new yatagan I had made, and I had chance to have some very interesting discussions with some of you about various issues concerning my work versus genuine ancient arms.

Today, I'm starting a new commission, a set of two caucasian arms, a kindjal and a shashka. First I shall be making the kindjal, and only after that the shashka.
I would greatly appreciate if I could discuss this work with you, just as we did for the yatagan, but doing it before I start would help me to avoid mistakes and solve some technical issues.

The kindjal is going to be plain carbon steel - no damascus - with satin polishing. The blade will have one non centered fuller and a wood or horn handle. The scabbard will be made of wood covered with leather. Both handle and scabbard will have some silver fittings with chasing / chiseling work and niello (and the same fittings will later be made for the shashka too).

My first issue is about the blade itself. I have no idea whether it should be flexible or not, and I don't know precisely what its thickness should be, from its base to its tip (distal tape).
From photos, I think it should be quite thick - but how thick exactly I can't say - and very unflexible... but I'm not sure to be right !
Would you be so kind to help me answer these very first questions ?

Thanks a lot for your help and advices, and kind regards,

Bernard

Atlantia · 22nd May 2012, 07:37 PM

Hi Bernard,

Pattern welded can look very nice

Here is my Kindjal for your consideration. I only have the one, but luckily for me it has a rather special blade (In fact apart from one on hermann-historica it's the best I've seen by a country mile).
The blade is not flexible. There is no distal taper until the parallel edged section ends, then it's quite a mild 'thinning'. The fullers mean that the widest part of the blade is just after the end of the fullers where the distal taper starts, which leading to a long diamond sction point is almost like an Indo-Persian armour piercing point. If you need any dimensions, want to discuss construction or POB etc, let me know.

my Kindjal

delor · 22nd May 2012, 10:55 PM

Hi Atlantia,

thanks you for your reply.
I do agree that pattern welded looks very nice. I would have loved to make it with twisted patterns just as yours (a really beautiful one) , but unfortunately I could not convince the buyer...

About the thickness of the blade : my feeling is that is could be around 8mm (0.31 inches) Could you please tell me how thick is yours ?

The commission is based on a genuine model that has been shown on ebay. I don't think I might post here the photos from ebay, but I will post drawings in some times. Then, more questions will certainly come along as the work goes on.

Thanks a lot !

Bernard

Atlantia · 22nd May 2012, 11:30 PM

Hi Bernard.

Weight: 573.8g. POB 11cm from hilt.
It's ok to post photo's from eBay as long as the item is sold not currently for sale (so not an active auction).

delor · 23rd May 2012, 12:04 AM

Wow, perfect. Many thanks !
I've just seen that our genuine model is back online on ebay, so no photo right now... I'll post drawings instead !
Regards,
Bernard

Atlantia · 23rd May 2012, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

Wow, perfect. Many thanks !
I've just seen that our genuine model is back online on ebay, so no photo right now... I'll post drawings instead !
Regards,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,

Glad to be of help. Look forward to seeing the drawings and hope to see the project progress.
What decisions have you made so far concerning construction?
ATB
Gene

delor · 23rd May 2012, 10:47 PM

Hello Gene,
I think that the construction should be quite simple : a tang, two wood or horn scales with big silver rivets. Size will approximatively be the same as yours. I don't see much difficulty here. Do I miss something ?
Regards,
Bernard

Atlantia · 24th May 2012, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

Hello Gene,
I think that the construction should be quite simple : a tang, two wood or horn scales with big silver rivets. Size will approximatively be the same as yours. I don't see much difficulty here. Do I miss something ?
Regards,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,

Will you use a single steel construction? What about tempering? You can see the differential tempering is very visible on mine. I think it's often a feature of Kindjals.

ATB
Gene

delor · 24th May 2012, 07:46 AM

Hi Gene,

yes I will use single steel. That's the choice of the buyer and I couldn't convince him to make neither twisted core nor layered steel. I confess I'm thinking of making a second one for myself at the same time, this one with twisted patterns...
Differential quenching or tempering is of course possible, that's a point I will discuss with him later. Anyway, it's still possible to make it, and decide after that whether or not to reveal it by acid etching.
Maybe we will make some engraving at the base of the blade, this is still being discussed...

Regards,
Bernard

delor · 24th July 2012, 06:26 PM

I'm currently discussing the blade details with my customer before I begin the work itself.
Here is the last drawing of the ongoing discussion.
We still have an issue to solve : my customer would like to add the engraving of a russian coat of arms onto the base of the blade. Single fuller blade usually have a deep and narrow fuller. On the other hand, engraved blades usually have several large and shallow fullers.
I'm currently thinking of making a single large and shallow fuller and make the engraving onto it, or maybe starting the fuller a few centimeters after the base of the blade in order to leave enough free space for the engraving.
None of these options is fully consistent with genuine kindjals...
What do you think of this ?

Atlantia · 24th July 2012, 06:43 PM

Looks great Delor.
How about the coat or arms on the scabbard throat instead?

delor · 7th March 2014, 01:49 AM

Hi guys,
your help has been very useful !
Although it took a lot of time, this project has successfully ended and I'm quite happy with it (hope you will be too).

Please find some photos I made during the process. I'll be glad to answer your questions and comments.
I'll post in another message all photos of the finished kindjal and scabbard, with the goldsmith's work.

Raw blade

Making of the scabbard

Leather work

Handle

delor · 7th March 2014, 03:51 AM

More photos of the making :

Quenching

Etching / engraving

A.alnakkas · 7th March 2014, 11:35 AM

very nice!!!

New ones are still being made in Zanjan, Iran. Some even have very nice koftgari!

delor · 7th March 2014, 03:43 PM

Thanks a lot !

Here are some photos of the kindjal and its scabbard with all fittings.
As you have seen we finally decided not to put the coat of arms on the throat of the scabbard, but keep the fittings as the original genuine model. We switched to a smaller engraving on the blade with just the owner initials.

All fittings are gilded with niello, and made by a goldsmith I'm working with.

archer burak · 16th March 2014, 11:12 PM

there is no word absulatly fabulose

Battara · 19th March 2014, 01:12 AM

Impressive. I bow in your presence!

delor · 2nd April 2014, 03:00 PM

Thanks a lot to all of you.
I'd like to add a few comments to this work. It has been very instructive to base it on informations from genuine pieces :
- one genuine kindjal that I could not show because at the time photos were from an ongoing auction,
- another one, genuine owned by Atlantia, who had been very kind to give me a number of informations about the various sizes (length, thickness, distal tape...).
I have done my best to remain as close as possible to these informations. From the first one, I took the design of the fittings and niello work. from the second one I took all the relevant dimensions.
The only noticeable difference is assembly of horn pieces for the handle. Although most of it is exactly the same as genuine kindjals, I chose not to hot bend the horn around the blade curvature, but to flatten the steel so that the horn pieces can take place with no constraint. We all have noticed that the parts of the handle often lose adjustements as times passes, and hot formed pieces never keep their exact shape. Flattening the steel takes more time and this is probably why it was not the preferred solution in old times, but for me it looked better.
Apart from this, I believe most of the work is very similar to the usual way of making kindjals.

I have been rather surprised with the usability of the resulting blade. From the measurements given by Atlantia , I was a bit afraid that the blade might be quite heavy and maybe too thick to allow a good edge. On the contrary, it appears to be very "agile", and the edge naturally came extremely sharp with no effort. It clearly shows that this design is very effective as the result of experience, use and adjustments over the years !

The small engraving on the blade is based on a common design I have seen on many others ancient objects, and is composed of a crown and a monogram. According to the client requirements, we used a police that is supposed to be "ancient slavonic", but I must say I don't know much about it...

The fittings have been made by a goldsmith I work with. He is not very familiar with those cultural codes from Caucasus and he noticed some interesting differences from the natural behaviors he already has for occidental craftsmanship. In example, the banner-like pattern that runs all along the scabbard fittings is not left / right symetrical as one would expect it to be. Not very noticeable at first look but very significative regarding the origin of the work.

I believe we now might go on with a shashka to match this kindjal. I'll let you know if this project comes to life, and maybe will ask you again for some help with your irremplacable experience concerning genuine arms.

Kind regards,
Bernard

weapons 27 · 3rd April 2014, 05:26 AM

félicitations pour le travail!!
super travail d'orfèvrerie,
par contre je pense que sur la plupart des kindjal
la poignée ne s"emboite pas dans le fourreau!
quel cuir avez vous utilisé pour recouvrir le fourreau ?
car j'ai quelques restaurations a faire!
merci
antoine

delor · 3rd April 2014, 08:07 AM

Thanks ! I will use english to answer your questions as this is an english-speaking forum.
You are right to say that on most kindjals the handle and the scabbard do not slot, at least as long as they are not covered with metal fittings, they just juxtapose like this :

But when the handle is metal-covered, the metal fitting at the throat of the scabbard usually slots into the metal fitting of the handle. An enlarged ring of the handle fitting allows the scabbard to fit inside it. You can find many examples in the forum :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kindjal
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kindjal

The scabbard is covered with thinned goat skin (which is commonly used with most of the genuine kindjals)

Regards,
Bernard

cicak_cobing · 3rd April 2014, 12:03 PM

wow, i'm lost for words..

i cannot imagine the time and effort put into this stunning piece of art..
look forward to see more work-in-progress projects from you here..

22nd May 2012, 05:22 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The making of a kindjal Dear friends, some monthes ago, I had been authorized by the forum administrators to show you a brand new yatagan I had made, and I had chance to have some very interesting discussions with some of you about various issues concerning my work versus genuine ancient arms. Today, I'm starting a new commission, a set of two caucasian arms, a kindjal and a shashka. First I shall be making the kindjal, and only after that the shashka. I would greatly appreciate if I could discuss this work with you, just as we did for the yatagan, but doing it before I start would help me to avoid mistakes and solve some technical issues. The kindjal is going to be plain carbon steel - no damascus - with satin polishing. The blade will have one non centered fuller and a wood or horn handle. The scabbard will be made of wood covered with leather. Both handle and scabbard will have some silver fittings with chasing / chiseling work and niello (and the same fittings will later be made for the shashka too). My first issue is about the blade itself. I have no idea whether it should be flexible or not, and I don't know precisely what its thickness should be, from its base to its tip (distal tape). From photos, I think it should be quite thick - but how thick exactly I can't say - and very unflexible... but I'm not sure to be right ! Would you be so kind to help me answer these very first questions ? Thanks a lot for your help and advices, and kind regards, Bernard

22nd May 2012, 07:37 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Bernard, Pattern welded can look very nice Here is my Kindjal for your consideration. I only have the one, but luckily for me it has a rather special blade (In fact apart from one on hermann-historica it's the best I've seen by a country mile). The blade is not flexible. There is no distal taper until the parallel edged section ends, then it's quite a mild 'thinning'. The fullers mean that the widest part of the blade is just after the end of the fullers where the distal taper starts, which leading to a long diamond sction point is almost like an Indo-Persian armour piercing point. If you need any dimensions, want to discuss construction or POB etc, let me know. my Kindjal Last edited by Atlantia; 22nd May 2012 at 09:26 PM.

22nd May 2012, 11:30 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Bernard. Weight: 573.8g. POB 11cm from hilt. It's ok to post photo's from eBay as long as the item is sold not currently for sale (so not an active auction). Attached Images

24th July 2012, 06:26 PM	#10
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	I'm currently discussing the blade details with my customer before I begin the work itself. Here is the last drawing of the ongoing discussion. We still have an issue to solve : my customer would like to add the engraving of a russian coat of arms onto the base of the blade. Single fuller blade usually have a deep and narrow fuller. On the other hand, engraved blades usually have several large and shallow fullers. I'm currently thinking of making a single large and shallow fuller and make the engraving onto it, or maybe starting the fuller a few centimeters after the base of the blade in order to leave enough free space for the engraving. None of these options is fully consistent with genuine kindjals... What do you think of this ? Attached Images

22nd May 2012, 10:55 PM	#3
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Hi Atlantia, thanks you for your reply. I do agree that pattern welded looks very nice. I would have loved to make it with twisted patterns just as yours (a really beautiful one) , but unfortunately I could not convince the buyer... About the thickness of the blade : my feeling is that is could be around 8mm (0.31 inches) Could you please tell me how thick is yours ? The commission is based on a genuine model that has been shown on ebay. I don't think I might post here the photos from ebay, but I will post drawings in some times. Then, more questions will certainly come along as the work goes on. Thanks a lot ! Bernard

23rd May 2012, 12:04 AM	#5
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Wow, perfect. Many thanks ! I've just seen that our genuine model is back online on ebay, so no photo right now... I'll post drawings instead ! Regards, Bernard

23rd May 2012, 10:47 PM	#7
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Hello Gene, I think that the construction should be quite simple : a tang, two wood or horn scales with big silver rivets. Size will approximatively be the same as yours. I don't see much difficulty here. Do I miss something ? Regards, Bernard

24th May 2012, 07:46 AM	#9
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Hi Gene, yes I will use single steel. That's the choice of the buyer and I couldn't convince him to make neither twisted core nor layered steel. I confess I'm thinking of making a second one for myself at the same time, this one with twisted patterns... Differential quenching or tempering is of course possible, that's a point I will discuss with him later. Anyway, it's still possible to make it, and decide after that whether or not to reveal it by acid etching. Maybe we will make some engraving at the base of the blade, this is still being discussed... Regards, Bernard

24th July 2012, 06:43 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Looks great Delor. How about the coat or arms on the scabbard throat instead?

7th March 2014, 01:49 AM	#12
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Hi guys, your help has been very useful ! Although it took a lot of time, this project has successfully ended and I'm quite happy with it (hope you will be too). Please find some photos I made during the process. I'll be glad to answer your questions and comments. I'll post in another message all photos of the finished kindjal and scabbard, with the goldsmith's work. Raw blade Making of the scabbard Leather work Handle

7th March 2014, 03:51 AM	#13
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	More photos of the making : Quenching Etching / engraving

7th March 2014, 11:35 AM	#14
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	very nice!!! New ones are still being made in Zanjan, Iran. Some even have very nice koftgari!

7th March 2014, 03:43 PM	#15
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Thanks a lot ! Here are some photos of the kindjal and its scabbard with all fittings. As you have seen we finally decided not to put the coat of arms on the throat of the scabbard, but keep the fittings as the original genuine model. We switched to a smaller engraving on the blade with just the owner initials. All fittings are gilded with niello, and made by a goldsmith I'm working with.

16th March 2014, 11:12 PM	#16
archer burak Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: İstanbul Posts: 22	there is no word absulatly fabulose

19th March 2014, 01:12 AM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Impressive. I bow in your presence!

2nd April 2014, 03:00 PM	#18
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Thanks a lot to all of you. I'd like to add a few comments to this work. It has been very instructive to base it on informations from genuine pieces : - one genuine kindjal that I could not show because at the time photos were from an ongoing auction, - another one, genuine owned by Atlantia, who had been very kind to give me a number of informations about the various sizes (length, thickness, distal tape...). I have done my best to remain as close as possible to these informations. From the first one, I took the design of the fittings and niello work. from the second one I took all the relevant dimensions. The only noticeable difference is assembly of horn pieces for the handle. Although most of it is exactly the same as genuine kindjals, I chose not to hot bend the horn around the blade curvature, but to flatten the steel so that the horn pieces can take place with no constraint. We all have noticed that the parts of the handle often lose adjustements as times passes, and hot formed pieces never keep their exact shape. Flattening the steel takes more time and this is probably why it was not the preferred solution in old times, but for me it looked better. Apart from this, I believe most of the work is very similar to the usual way of making kindjals. I have been rather surprised with the usability of the resulting blade. From the measurements given by Atlantia , I was a bit afraid that the blade might be quite heavy and maybe too thick to allow a good edge. On the contrary, it appears to be very "agile", and the edge naturally came extremely sharp with no effort. It clearly shows that this design is very effective as the result of experience, use and adjustments over the years ! The small engraving on the blade is based on a common design I have seen on many others ancient objects, and is composed of a crown and a monogram. According to the client requirements, we used a police that is supposed to be "ancient slavonic", but I must say I don't know much about it... The fittings have been made by a goldsmith I work with. He is not very familiar with those cultural codes from Caucasus and he noticed some interesting differences from the natural behaviors he already has for occidental craftsmanship. In example, the banner-like pattern that runs all along the scabbard fittings is not left / right symetrical as one would expect it to be. Not very noticeable at first look but very significative regarding the origin of the work. I believe we now might go on with a shashka to match this kindjal. I'll let you know if this project comes to life, and maybe will ask you again for some help with your irremplacable experience concerning genuine arms. Kind regards, Bernard

3rd April 2014, 05:26 AM	#19
weapons 27 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 462	félicitations pour le travail!! super travail d'orfèvrerie, par contre je pense que sur la plupart des kindjal la poignée ne s"emboite pas dans le fourreau! quel cuir avez vous utilisé pour recouvrir le fourreau ? car j'ai quelques restaurations a faire! merci antoine

3rd April 2014, 08:07 AM	#20
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Thanks ! I will use english to answer your questions as this is an english-speaking forum. You are right to say that on most kindjals the handle and the scabbard do not slot, at least as long as they are not covered with metal fittings, they just juxtapose like this : But when the handle is metal-covered, the metal fitting at the throat of the scabbard usually slots into the metal fitting of the handle. An enlarged ring of the handle fitting allows the scabbard to fit inside it. You can find many examples in the forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kindjal http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=kindjal The scabbard is covered with thinned goat skin (which is commonly used with most of the genuine kindjals) Regards, Bernard

3rd April 2014, 12:03 PM	#21
cicak_cobing Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 20	wow, i'm lost for words.. i cannot imagine the time and effort put into this stunning piece of art.. look forward to see more work-in-progress projects from you here..