When the painting comes to our rescue

Dom · 10th June 2011, 01:17 PM

Good day every body
I found by chance, confirmation that the strings and small bells attached to the purse containing the "Bukhara kard" who is with me, was very original
just by looking accurately a beautiful painting dated 1845
that purse, with fringes, strings and small bells, intrigued me a lot,
until I was having a doubt about their origins

now, after have made a comparison I'm more comfortable

judge it by yourself

à +

Dom

rickystl · 10th June 2011, 05:26 PM

Dom: That's a great looking knife and pouch. Great oil painting. And you noticed the cords and bells just by chance? Great. Wish I new someone who could make these cords, bells, beads etc. in traditional style. Rick.

Dom · 10th June 2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Great oil painting. And you noticed the cords and bells just by chance?

Hi Rick
due to my interest of "Islamic Art" I'm follow the auctions, and sometimes I'm going to tried my ... luck
but this painting has an estimation too high for me, also ... also, I can not pay me over than a look at this painting, no more ...

the catalogue
http://www.gros-delettrez.com/flash/...&idCp=1&lng=fr
the painting
http://www.gros-delettrez.com/html/f...dre=1&aff=1&r=

à +

Dom

rickystl · 10th June 2011, 06:41 PM

Dom: Thanks for the email. I often think that the price we pay for our antique weapons is sometimes high. Until I see what original historic art work goes for. And the art work usually goes for more than the high estimate

Rick.

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2011, 08:23 PM

Hi Dom,
I just wanted to thank you for this brilliant bit of detective work, and the great graphics work and detail you have added in presenting this. While not necessarily in my fields of study as far as the items, I am intrigued by the way you have incorporated the realm of art to the identification of weapons, something long established but not commonly practiced by antique arms enthusiasts. If there were a book focused on any field of study of arms and armour with this kind of detail with this kind of presentation, it would in my opinion, be #1 for reference. Well done!!!!

The late A.V.B.Norman well illustrated this practice by using classical art and portraiture to establish period provenance on many European hilt forms, and truly set the pace for the identification of these forms. It is well known that using the fabulous 'miniatures' in art of Persia and India, these have often been instrumental in establishing benchmarks in the appearance of certain weapons.

Art is a most valuable resource for study in all manner of identification of antiquities, allowing for caution in some cases with items which are known to have been props and studies used for artistic effect, such as evidenced in many classical Biblical works such as done by Rembrandt.

While few can readily afford the expensive works themselves, which in our case often serve as references rather than collectibles, it seems that there are copies or prints reasonably priced and available.

All best regards,
Jim

Dom · 11th June 2011, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While few can readily afford the expensive works themselves, which in our case often serve as references rather than collectibles, it seems that there are copies or prints reasonably priced and available.

All best regards,
Jim

Thanks you both; Rick & Jim for your nice words
I do not like do ..., "as if "

in case of, I can afford,
I take great pleasure to get an "original", even for a painting

which here would be happy with a copy of a weapon ?
for me it's frustrating
because I should does do "as if" I was having enough money ... that I haven't

in front to a wonderful wonder, after a mental checking of my wallet, I take it or
I put my hands in my back, and I watch ...
my decision will be; an original or nothing

I know that, I can't have everything ...
it's the life, and anyway, it's nice ... the life even like that

best regards

à +

Dom

ps/ at the same auction, here the second catalog, with some edged weapons
http://www.gros-delettrez.com/flash/...&idCp=1&lng=fr

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2011, 06:31 AM

Understood Dom

Naturally it is the 'real'weapons that I remember collecting (back in the day

and of course I could not possibly relate to a copy of a weapon....and gladly accepted well worn old warriors which were what I could afford, but they were the real deal.
And who wouldnt want the real thing in art to display along with the real weapon! But realistically, only those with substantial resources can often afford fine arts in paintings and or weapons. For purposes of study and research, all I was saying was that it was not really necessary to own the actual painting to utilize the pictures elements for identification, and copies or photos would suffice.
Through the years often books I needed for research were considered rare or hard to find, and horribly expensive when found. All I needed was to check some information and make a few notes, therefore I simply put my librarian to work and borrowed these for the time required. If I was collecting books, then perhaps I would pay the money for a first printing, 1st edition...but this was research, not collecting.

You are absolutely right though..we all have our own priorities and values, and I feel very lucky to be able to vicariously enjoy the magnificent things everyone shares here!!! I am most grateful for your kind contributions here too, as for me the learning is the treasure.

All the very best,
Jim

Dom · 11th June 2011, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

For purposes of study and research, all I was saying was that it was not really necessary to own the actual painting to utilize the pictures elements for identification, and copies or photos would suffice.
Through the years often books I needed for research were considered rare or hard to find, and horribly expensive when found. All I needed was to check some information and make a few notes, therefore I simply put my librarian to work and borrowed these for the time required.

YES Jim
I totally agree with you

I have a computer file for each type of weapons that come home ...

in fact, for each item of my collectionS .... I have 3

- Islamic edged weapons
- Islamic rosaries (semi-precious stones)
- Islamic talismanic bowls (also called, medicine bowls)
in this file, there are "doc" and "jpg",
whenever I find something pertinent I add,
I'm even shots computer screen when I can't extract a pic, or a doc

definitively, we are in the same track

all the best

à +

Dom

10th June 2011, 01:17 PM	#1
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	When the painting comes to our rescue Good day every body I found by chance, confirmation that the strings and small bells attached to the purse containing the "Bukhara kard" who is with me, was very original just by looking accurately a beautiful painting dated 1845 that purse, with fringes, strings and small bells, intrigued me a lot, until I was having a doubt about their origins now, after have made a comparison I'm more comfortable judge it by yourself à + Dom Attached Images

10th June 2011, 05:26 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Dom: That's a great looking knife and pouch. Great oil painting. And you noticed the cords and bells just by chance? Great. Wish I new someone who could make these cords, bells, beads etc. in traditional style. Rick.

10th June 2011, 06:41 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Dom: Thanks for the email. I often think that the price we pay for our antique weapons is sometimes high. Until I see what original historic art work goes for. And the art work usually goes for more than the high estimate Rick.

10th June 2011, 08:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Dom, I just wanted to thank you for this brilliant bit of detective work, and the great graphics work and detail you have added in presenting this. While not necessarily in my fields of study as far as the items, I am intrigued by the way you have incorporated the realm of art to the identification of weapons, something long established but not commonly practiced by antique arms enthusiasts. If there were a book focused on any field of study of arms and armour with this kind of detail with this kind of presentation, it would in my opinion, be #1 for reference. Well done!!!! The late A.V.B.Norman well illustrated this practice by using classical art and portraiture to establish period provenance on many European hilt forms, and truly set the pace for the identification of these forms. It is well known that using the fabulous 'miniatures' in art of Persia and India, these have often been instrumental in establishing benchmarks in the appearance of certain weapons. Art is a most valuable resource for study in all manner of identification of antiquities, allowing for caution in some cases with items which are known to have been props and studies used for artistic effect, such as evidenced in many classical Biblical works such as done by Rembrandt. While few can readily afford the expensive works themselves, which in our case often serve as references rather than collectibles, it seems that there are copies or prints reasonably priced and available. All best regards, Jim

11th June 2011, 06:31 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Understood Dom Naturally it is the 'real'weapons that I remember collecting (back in the day and of course I could not possibly relate to a copy of a weapon....and gladly accepted well worn old warriors which were what I could afford, but they were the real deal. And who wouldnt want the real thing in art to display along with the real weapon! But realistically, only those with substantial resources can often afford fine arts in paintings and or weapons. For purposes of study and research, all I was saying was that it was not really necessary to own the actual painting to utilize the pictures elements for identification, and copies or photos would suffice. Through the years often books I needed for research were considered rare or hard to find, and horribly expensive when found. All I needed was to check some information and make a few notes, therefore I simply put my librarian to work and borrowed these for the time required. If I was collecting books, then perhaps I would pay the money for a first printing, 1st edition...but this was research, not collecting. You are absolutely right though..we all have our own priorities and values, and I feel very lucky to be able to vicariously enjoy the magnificent things everyone shares here!!! I am most grateful for your kind contributions here too, as for me the learning is the treasure. All the very best, Jim