Controversial Hunting Sword – European with Moorish influence?

[Cathey]

I was asked by Jim McDougall to post this hunting sword on this forum.

Date Circa: 1800
Nationality: Cordoba, Argentina or Spain
Over Length: 62.4 cm
Blade length: 46.5 cm
Blade widest point: 4.5 cm

Marks, etc: Blade engraved decoration to 2/3rds and the name SAN RoqE. Decoration includes dear, standing man with hat, double headed eagle and ½ man with hat as well as decorative foliage.

Description: HUNTING SWORD Hispanic origin circa 1800 (Cordoba, Argentina). Ornate silver hilt includes a delicately carved bone/horn dog at the top of the grip connected to the lower end of grip by a silver chain. Matching silver work to leather scabbard with frog, end fitting missing. All silver fitting very tight and well made excellent quality. Double-headed eagle is included among the complicated decoration deeply chiselled into the blade. The name SAN RoqE [San Roque] is the Spanish form of that of the French saint known in English and French as “Saint Roch”. He was very popular, and many churches and religious institutions were dedicated to, or named after him.

General Remarks
Claude Blair provided the information re SAN RoqE and suggested its origin to be Hispanic. Every collector who has looked at this item has come up with a different origin, the only thing we can all agree on is that it is a hunting sword. The general workmanship is very fine and typical of European hunting swords, however the design and look is more Spanish with a distinctly Moorish flavour.

Cheers Cathey

[Gavin Nugent]

Welcome Cathey,

What a gorgeous sword!!! Thank you Cathey and thank you Jim for asking for it to be put forward.
The Falcata immeadiately comes to mind when viewing the basic profile. I think by design and Claude Blairs comments your nailed the region. The man in the hat shows Gaucho origins and I do wonder when looking at the chiselling to the blade a better appreciation of locality may come to light.

Again, very nice, I look forward to larger images if available and further comments from learned members.

Best

Gav

[kronckew]

wow, i really like that one, would like to see the whole blade...

[Gavin Nugent]

Me again, the eye candy was just to good not to come back again and have another look. I'd second Kronckew's WOW, I just noticed the return on the pommel is actually a dogs head, very Spanish in my eyes as is the engravings to the blade...I look forward to further discussion and my third view of it...

Gav

[Sajen]

Beautiful sword!

[Lee]

An amazingly innovative and well executed piece. Considering the suspicions of Argentinean origin, I took the liberty of directing Mr. Abel Domenech of Buenos Aires to this thread as I cannot imagine anyone more knowledgeable about the arms and armour of South America and he has kindly shared his thoughts and graciously allowed me to post them here.

----- Mr. Domenech's Comments -----

I personally think that it is definitively Not a piece made in Argentina, nor made abroad specifically for our market.

I can`t find the connection with Cordoba, which is one of our Provinces. Unless it has some kind of inscription on the blade or any other part which mentions it, of course.

It is true, that San Roque is a very popular Saint here, and several locations have this name, including a very well known one in the Province of Cordoba. But also the worship to San Roque Saint came here from Spain.

I agree with Cathey, that the piece has a very strong Moorish or oriental flavour, both in the shape of the sword, as in the decoration.
Acid etching (aqua forte) decoration is thoroughly used on the blade of this sword, and this technique was of common use in Toledo, were artisans were taught to use it centuries ago from the Moor invaders.

If the piece was found in Argentina territory, and not knowing about its previous owners, it is very difficult to say something about it, but simple speculation.

This is not a "gaucho edged weapon" by itself, but gauchos were known to put into use anything which came to their hands, as long as it was useful for their job, or to their taste.

It is known fact that some facones were made from Lace handle rapiers, I personally found, some years ago, a XIX Century Rodgers kandjar in the hands of a local "paisano", an also a Russian kindjal was known to be used by a notorious person during the XIX C.

Many of these pieces of weaponry came to our territories, carried by immigrants, Spanish soldiers, and adventurers, during the Conquista and later Colonial periods.

In later periods, many exotic weapons came here in hands of wealthy local people visiting Europe or the Orient, and eventually, these pieces were lost or stolen here to finally end in strange hands, without the knowledge of the real value of the piece.

It would be interesting to know a little more about the Cordoba connection, and may be the present owner could tell us why he feels that there is such a connection.

[fernando]

Hi Cathey, welcome to the forum.
Concerning the description; who made it ? did it come with the sword ?
In other words, who has connected this piece to Cordoba?
San Roqe is naturally a misspell for San Roque.
You know there is (also) a (small) city called San Roque in Colombia? I know this is a fantasy, but there is silver in Colombia, men with hats, deer and eagles.
The dog in the hilt; the legend says that when São Roque was contaminated with the plague, he retired to the forest, and only survived because a dog brought him daily a piece of bread. In some countries this Saint is considered the patron of dogs.
I know this doesn't help much, and would like to know where that sword comes from.
Fernando

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

In answer to a number of queries I have posted some additional pictures and can provide the following information. Not that I think it will help much.

This sword was purchased by previous owner from an antique shop in London in 1949. I purchased the item in Australia in 1995.

The connection Cordoba, Argentina was speculative due to the name SAN RoqE. The information bout this Saint and dogs however is very interesting, given the hilt design.

Cheers Cathey

Slightly coincidental .

Blade shape and the little Sun marks .

Small world .

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, I wanted to thank you for posting this here, and for joining us!!!
This short sword which as agreed seems to be a hunting weapon with profound Hispano-Moresque presence is indeed a fascinating and enigmatic piece. It is not at all surprising that something this unusual will bring many interpretations and perceptions as seen by various individuals, as it is in essence, art.

When I first saw this piece, and saw the attribution to Argentina, my first thoughts were of similar items vaguely recalled, and particularly to me, the rounded choil at the back of the blade, which reminded me of that feature in varying degree in some Argentinean punals. It seems that this is seen on some Meditteranean dirks as well, along with the ferrule in variant form which joins the blade and the handle at the blade back.

The octagonal handle, and ferrule, which is somewhat columnar, also seemed to well correspond to Meditteranean dirks.

The pommel cap with capstan is a feature on these dirks and it seems some punal from Argentina, but it seems that wide variation and features derived from European examples have become hard to discern, except of course for the experts in these weapons.

Now understanding that the SAN RoqE is probably in reference to this key figure in the history of Spain, which seems to correspond to the theme of this weapon with the dog on the pommel cap, holding the chain in his mouth. As Fernando has noted, this dog image is important with reference to this Saint. The town of San Roque is in Andalusian Spain, in the province of Cadiz, very near Gibraltar, though it is unclear whether that is important as to the region the sword is from or the SAN RoqE is to the swords theme.

The double headed or Imperial eagle is key in Spanish history as pertains to the coat of arms of Charles I (Carlos I) 1519-1556, who was elected Holy Roman Emperor in 1519, and I understand is considered the first Spanish king after the Reconquista. I am sure that is probably not entirely correct, but the salient point is his use of the Byzantine eagle.

This short sword I would suggest with reviewed information, may be a commemorative weapon fashioned for presentation to an esteemed figure as a diplomatic gift, as hunting type weapons often were. The San Roque theme along with neoclassic characteristics of the falcata,and Hispano-Moresque style as well as certain Meditteranean knife features seem to support this in some degree.

It does certainly seem of 19th century, and I would add even more to the conundrum by noting that Arab sa'ifs of the 18th and even into the early 20th century had these pommel connecting chains to quillon (while this is to the blade collar).

All best regards,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi Cathey,

Jim McDougall has greatly flattered my superficial knowledge of "Criollo" (Creole) edged weapons by inviting my comments on this piece.

Before Jim made his kind invitation, I saw your post, but was reluctant to say anything about this piece because everything about is atypical of Argentina, indeed South America, but of course, proving this view would be more difficult than just saying so. However, given Abel Domenech's expert view, quoted in Lee's informative post, and Jim's aforementioned invitation, I have gained the encouragement needed to say something, but sadly can do little better than wholeheartedly agree with every word of Mr Domenech.

If at all I could make a small contribution, it would be by way of emphasizing Mr Domenech's words to the effect that all sorts of edged wares found their way to and were used in Sth America. So, whilst the ornate metal hilted and furnished knife fashioned from either discarded swords, bayonets or trade blades, by the end of the 19th century did become representative of the River Plate region, nevertheless these were by no means universal.

Cheers
Chris

[Jim McDougall]

Chris thank you for coming in on this, and for your valuable comments which are much appreciated in discussing this most interesting sword. Your observations in accord with those of Mr. Domenech very much secure the position that this short sword is not Argentinian, despite some of the admittedly superficial gestalt to the punal that I had noted.

In further looking over the weapon and the various elements of its motif and style, I keep returning to Gav's very astute comment of its resemblance in degree to the ancient falcata.

With consideration to the SAN RoqE inscribed in the blade motif, as well as the carved horn pommel cap in the form of a dog, carrying the theme of this important figure included in Spanish tradition, it would seem that traditionalism is key to this sword.

When the element of the Imperial double headed eagle is added to these features, its importance in Spanish heraldry seems to reflect Emperor Charles V or Charles I of Spain (1519-1556) and as this piece is obviously not of that period, perhaps suggests possibly Carlist (?) associations incorporated into the traditional themes seen here overall.

The sword is fashioned very much in the style of elegant cutlery and hunting trousse items, with the heavy repousse blade collar (which holds the vestigial knuckle guard chain attached to the pommel cap), resembling some of these in provincial pieces from Italy and Spain. As previously noted, the rounded choil is a feature sometimes present on the Meditteranean dirks, which this sword seems to reflect in gestalt.

What seems interestingly incongruent, and all the more intriguing, is the very Hispano-Moresque styling used in accord with the very traditional theme of the Cult of Saint Roch and the Holy Roman Empire eagle.

A beautiful weapon, completely intriguing with this mystery !!

Outstanding observations and discussion with Fernando's addition of information on the dog, the interesting twist Rick noted on the solar symbols, Gavs note on the falcata and of course the key comments of Mr. Domenech furnished by Lee and supported by Chris.

Having established that this seems to have been European and agreed to be 19th century, my comments are simply suggestions compiling notes on this swords features, and I hope to hear other views and perspectives on these as well.


The attached illustrations are of the ancient falcata; the Byzantine Imperial eagle; and of St. Roch and the dog carrying bread in his mouth.

All very best regards,
Jim