Pamorless keris (keleng)

ferrylaki · 29th April 2009, 05:10 AM

recently got this pamorless keris.
I always wondering about kelengan keris, and finally I got one.
I've been trying to find out whether it has a hiddden pamor. the result comes to zero, but I found small area in the middle of the blade surface showing tiny little materials ( like a very smooth sands). what is it? .
the new warangan work seem just fine.

Rick · 29th April 2009, 10:47 PM

Could it be old iron showing edge hardening Ferry ?

ferrylaki · 30th April 2009, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Could it be old iron showing edge hardening Ferry ?

I have no idea.
some people said, it was caused by the impurities of the iron.

BluErf · 30th April 2009, 11:40 AM

The 'smooth sand' is prob what is known as 'pamor miang' in peninsular keris context. It's not really a pamor, but some sort of crystallization. Experience is that metals exhibiting "pamor miang" are not very strong/hard, and is usually the non-cutting edge metal. Sometimes we see this in Sumatran kerises without pamor as well. Not sure how it is formed though.

ferrylaki · 1st May 2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The 'smooth sand' is prob what is known as 'pamor miang' in peninsular keris context. It's not really a pamor, but some sort of crystallization. Experience is that metals exhibiting "pamor miang" are not very strong/hard, and is usually the non-cutting edge metal. Sometimes we see this in Sumatran kerises without pamor as well. Not sure how it is formed though.

Thank You BluErf,
the 'smooth sand' do not bother me any way.
I'm quite pleased with the warangan work.
the black colour seem strong and deep. specially after I put some keris oil on it. I took tho pisture immediately after the oiling, and it result nicely.

here are some pictures before the warangan process. I hope you all enjoying the picture as I do.

the third picture shows some lines as a result of the forging process.
really love those lines. I've been looking for keris with lines.

G. McCormack · 1st May 2009, 05:23 AM

the 'sand' like appearance you see is just the crystal structure of the steel/iron revealed by the etch. Probably a forest of pearlite crystals.

Nice blade.

ferrylaki · 1st May 2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. McCormack

the 'sand' like appearance you see is just the crystal structure of the steel/iron revealed by the etch. Probably a forest of pearlite crystals.

Nice blade.

thank you for the information.

Sajen · 3rd May 2009, 02:03 PM

Nice keleng blade and good pictures.
sajen

kulbuntet · 3rd May 2009, 03:03 PM

Annyone had a thought about that the waragnan bath maybe was to strong.. I think the blade has got pamor, but the wash was to strong.

ferrylaki · 4th May 2009, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Annyone had a thought about that the waragnan bath maybe was to strong.. I think the blade has got pamor, but the wash was to strong.

I understand your thought about the ' too strong warangan' . at the first time I also have the same feeling about this keris. It must be a pamor keris.
I find it so difficult to find a kelengan keris. thats why this keris amuse me so much, because it trully is a kelengan keris. I've been asking for some opinion regarding this keris. all of them says it is a kelengan keris.

the warangan job it self done in a very good manner, by a goos friend of mine. he is a a very skillfull person with warangan and other keris related activities.
lets us continue this discussion to its tangguh. I have a thought this keris has tangguh of: early Hamengku Buwono. looking at its gonjo.
any body has another idea?

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 12:27 AM

Ferry, I know you to be quite knowledgeable in the field of keris, you have this keris in your hand, and your opinion is that it is early HB.

However, I would ask you to consider this:-

is it legitimate to give a kraton based tangguh to a keris that is obviously of far less than kraton quality?

is it possible to give a supportable opinion in respect of tangguh when we are dealing with a keris that lacks many of the indicators that we would normally use to establish an opinion?

is it possible that we are looking at a keris that might be able to be categorised as Kajoran, or perhaps Godean --- or maybe, just maybe, Palembang?

I myself am not prepared to offer an opinion on this keris, simply because it is far too difficult to form an opinion from just a photo. I cannot accurately appraise the pawakan, I have no idea at all of the tanting, I cannot feel the texture, I cannot see if the ganja is sebit ron or nguceng mati, I do not know the form of the sirah cecak---its just too hard from a photo, especially for a blade like this.

What I think I can see is what appears to be a fairly substantial blade with a sharply defined ada-ada running full length of the blade, no kruwingan, a square blumbangan, a ganja with a mid line curve, but a small and harsh tungkakan. This is sufficient to point my mind along a certain road, but at the end of that road there are a number of gateways. I do not know from the photos which one to choose.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, I know you to be quite knowledgeable in the field of keris, you have this keris in your hand, and your opinion is that it is early HB.

However, I would ask you to consider this:-

is it legitimate to give a kraton based tangguh to a keris that is obviously of far less than kraton quality?

is it possible to give a supportable opinion in respect of tangguh when we are dealing with a keris that lacks many of the indicators that we would normally use to establish an opinion?

is it possible that we are looking at a keris that might be able to be categorised as Kajoran, or perhaps Godean --- or maybe, just maybe, Palembang?

I myself am not prepared to offer an opinion on this keris, simply because it is far too difficult to form an opinion from just a photo. I cannot accurately appraise the pawakan, I have no idea at all of the tanting, I cannot feel the texture, I cannot see if the ganja is sebit ron or nguceng mati, I do not know the form of the sirah cecak---its just too hard from a photo, especially for a blade like this.

What I think I can see is what appears to be a fairly substantial blade with a sharply defined ada-ada running full length of the blade, no kruwingan, a square blumbangan, a ganja with a mid line curve, but a small and harsh tungkakan. This is sufficient to point my mind along a certain road, but at the end of that road there are a number of gateways. I do not know from the photos which one to choose.

Hai Alan, I finally got your attention.
I define the tangguh to be early HB since its original warangka is a Jogjanese brangah. sorry I didnt include the warangka ini the picture.
I also understand its very hard to judge tangguh using photograph.
we must feel the surface, the tantingan, etc.
I try my best to provide these good pictures for us to discuss.
I rarely meet palembang keris. the last palembang keris I met is much much thicker with sharply defined ada-ada which is also running full lenght of the blade. using a kinatah gonjo, very beautiful keris ( a saw the keris 2 weeks ago) .

I hope this discussion would continue a bit longer. I really apreciate any opinion about this keris. I try my best to provide a decent keris to be discussed.
Hope that my Thread would become a usefull discussion material for all of us.
Thank you.

Ferrylaki

David · 6th May 2009, 03:23 AM

Can someone please define tantingan?

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 04:14 AM

Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris.

Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did.

I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be.

Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

David · 6th May 2009, 04:21 AM

Thanks Alan.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris.

Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did.

I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be.

Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

I haven't visit the Mangkunegaran museum yet, maybe next time.
The idea of opening this new thread is finding another opinion regarding my new keris.During my second year studying tke keris, I found it so hard to understand, learning about the dhapur, the material, specially the tangguh.
Alan, do you really have a suspicion this is a palembang keris? based on the sirah cecak shape and the gonjo?

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 04:36 AM

I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty.

I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility.

The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty.

I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility.

The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

Thanks Alan, my first conclusion regarding this keris is ' it is a javanese' keris. I've made some discussion on this keris, and all of the opinion says this is a javanese keris. I always looking forward for your opinion, that's why I immediately brought this photos to this forum.
you're the first person to say that it might be a palembang keris. as you mention before 'they have always looked to have different material to this one' based on the keris material it self. most of my friends would tend to say this keris have a common material used in javanese kerises. the buntut urang is 2mm wide. about the nyebit rontal ganja, I would say this one do not have nyebit ron ganja. there is a trace of ri pandan indicate it has jalak tilam sari dhapur. a common dhapur in javanese keris.

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2009, 05:31 AM

Yeah, might have been a tilam sari --- or it might not. I mentioned Palembang because it does have certain features that are similar to some Palembang I have seen, but Ferry, I don't think my qualification of my remarks is getting through:- I consider Palembang to be a very, very, very outside possibility, with really no hope of supporting this opinion, for the simple reason that this keris has been heavily cleaned over a long period of time, whereas the Palembang blades I have seen that are similar still had a bench finish on them. The feel and appearance of material changes over time, thus to compare pristine finish with heavily cleaned finish is not possible.

I 've said it previously, and I will say it again:- I cannot give an opinion on this keris from photographs; all I can do is agree to the visible characteristics and float a few possibilities.

I am not giving an opinion: I am suggesting that perhaps you might like to consider some possibilities other than HB.

You are the man who has it in his hand, it must be your decision.

ferrylaki · 6th May 2009, 05:52 AM

thanks again Alan.

ferrylaki · 7th May 2009, 03:50 AM

I found a comparison palembang keris for our further discussion.
how do you think?

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2009, 04:43 AM

Looks like a nice keris.

BluErf · 9th May 2009, 03:56 AM

The anak alang above is very nice, but is rather unusual in the context of Palembang. Anak alang forms are more commonly found in Central Sumatra, worn by the Minangs, but even then, the anak alangs are of slightly different form and generally not as refined as this. Note that the hilt is new ivory, and the bit of sheath I can see on the top left corner seems to show a Palembang sampir's although it looks also a bit stiff. The hilt form does not match that sampir form. This in turn could suggest that this keris is a put together, and I do not rule out recent 'enhancements' to the keris. In which case, the use of this keris for comparison is not 'safe', in my opinion.

29th April 2009, 05:10 AM	#1
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	Pamorless keris (keleng) recently got this pamorless keris. I always wondering about kelengan keris, and finally I got one. I've been trying to find out whether it has a hiddden pamor. the result comes to zero, but I found small area in the middle of the blade surface showing tiny little materials ( like a very smooth sands). what is it? . the new warangan work seem just fine. Attached Images

7th May 2009, 03:50 AM	#21
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	I found a comparison palembang keris for our further discussion. how do you think? Attached Images

7th May 2009, 04:43 AM	#22
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Looks like a nice keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 7th May 2009 at 06:43 AM. Reason: irrelevant

29th April 2009, 10:47 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Could it be old iron showing edge hardening Ferry ?

30th April 2009, 11:40 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The 'smooth sand' is prob what is known as 'pamor miang' in peninsular keris context. It's not really a pamor, but some sort of crystallization. Experience is that metals exhibiting "pamor miang" are not very strong/hard, and is usually the non-cutting edge metal. Sometimes we see this in Sumatran kerises without pamor as well. Not sure how it is formed though.

1st May 2009, 05:23 AM	#6
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	the 'sand' like appearance you see is just the crystal structure of the steel/iron revealed by the etch. Probably a forest of pearlite crystals. Nice blade.

3rd May 2009, 02:03 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Nice keleng blade and good pictures. sajen

3rd May 2009, 03:03 PM	#9
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	Annyone had a thought about that the waragnan bath maybe was to strong.. I think the blade has got pamor, but the wash was to strong.

6th May 2009, 12:27 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Ferry, I know you to be quite knowledgeable in the field of keris, you have this keris in your hand, and your opinion is that it is early HB. However, I would ask you to consider this:- is it legitimate to give a kraton based tangguh to a keris that is obviously of far less than kraton quality? is it possible to give a supportable opinion in respect of tangguh when we are dealing with a keris that lacks many of the indicators that we would normally use to establish an opinion? is it possible that we are looking at a keris that might be able to be categorised as Kajoran, or perhaps Godean --- or maybe, just maybe, Palembang? I myself am not prepared to offer an opinion on this keris, simply because it is far too difficult to form an opinion from just a photo. I cannot accurately appraise the pawakan, I have no idea at all of the tanting, I cannot feel the texture, I cannot see if the ganja is sebit ron or nguceng mati, I do not know the form of the sirah cecak---its just too hard from a photo, especially for a blade like this. What I think I can see is what appears to be a fairly substantial blade with a sharply defined ada-ada running full length of the blade, no kruwingan, a square blumbangan, a ganja with a mid line curve, but a small and harsh tungkakan. This is sufficient to point my mind along a certain road, but at the end of that road there are a number of gateways. I do not know from the photos which one to choose.

6th May 2009, 03:23 AM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Can someone please define tantingan?

6th May 2009, 04:14 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Tantingan is the weight estimated by holding in your hand---yes, its as specific as that, you must hold it. Can apply to anything, not just keris. Actually Ferry, you got my attention on day one, but I was hoping somebody else would jump into the pond before I did. I tend to take no notice at all of the dress a blade comes in, often, that will only confuse you. Have you been to the musium in the Mangkunegaran, Ferry? Seen the keris worn by Balinese mercenaries? Over the years I've seen Bugis blades in old Central Jawa dress, Bali blades in old Central Jawa dress, lots of old Madura blades in old Central Jawa dress, and I've seen old Javanese blades in old Bali dress. I just don't take a lot of notice of the dress if I'm trying to decide what the classification of a blade might be. Yeah, some of the good Palembang are as good as anything we find from Central Jawa. I've got a real nice Palembang with heavy, perfect kinatah, fine ivory hilt and swasa pendok. I bought it in London, of all places.

6th May 2009, 04:21 AM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Thanks Alan.

6th May 2009, 04:36 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	I'm sorry Ferry, but I just cannot say with any degree of certainty. I just can't do this sort of thing from photos ---unless we're talking Segaluh or high class Surakarta, or something else that is easy to tag. I've seen Palembang blades that look more or less like this one, but because they haven't been regularly cleaned, they have always looked to have different material to this one. All I'm saying is that it might---I emphasise might--- be a possibility. The Mn. is worth a visit. No pics inside, but you can sketch. Some nice old gold in the collection.

6th May 2009, 05:31 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Yeah, might have been a tilam sari --- or it might not. I mentioned Palembang because it does have certain features that are similar to some Palembang I have seen, but Ferry, I don't think my qualification of my remarks is getting through:- I consider Palembang to be a very, very, very outside possibility, with really no hope of supporting this opinion, for the simple reason that this keris has been heavily cleaned over a long period of time, whereas the Palembang blades I have seen that are similar still had a bench finish on them. The feel and appearance of material changes over time, thus to compare pristine finish with heavily cleaned finish is not possible. I 've said it previously, and I will say it again:- I cannot give an opinion on this keris from photographs; all I can do is agree to the visible characteristics and float a few possibilities. I am not giving an opinion: I am suggesting that perhaps you might like to consider some possibilities other than HB. You are the man who has it in his hand, it must be your decision.

6th May 2009, 05:52 AM	#20
ferrylaki Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 285	thanks again Alan.

9th May 2009, 03:56 AM	#23
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The anak alang above is very nice, but is rather unusual in the context of Palembang. Anak alang forms are more commonly found in Central Sumatra, worn by the Minangs, but even then, the anak alangs are of slightly different form and generally not as refined as this. Note that the hilt is new ivory, and the bit of sheath I can see on the top left corner seems to show a Palembang sampir's although it looks also a bit stiff. The hilt form does not match that sampir form. This in turn could suggest that this keris is a put together, and I do not rule out recent 'enhancements' to the keris. In which case, the use of this keris for comparison is not 'safe', in my opinion.