Kindjal, filigreed sheath.

rockelk · 25th June 2019, 03:43 AM

I was shown a Kindjal with 14 “of blade and three fullers. It feels as a robust blade, something you could really fight with. I am hesitating because the scabbard is completely and nicely covered with filigreed silver? I went thru K. Rivkin’s Arms and Armor and could find no examples of scabbards with filigree decorations. Does anyone know of collectable Kindjal sheathed in filigreed silver?

I could get no pictures. So in advance I apologize.
With, regards, rm

ariel · 25th June 2019, 04:15 AM

Are the fullers narrow and positioned as short- longer-short? Is the blade flat? Is there numeral 3 on the back of the scabbard?

rockelk · 25th June 2019, 04:37 AM

three fullers long short long the middle is shorter and stops three inches short of the hilt. At the tapered point the fullers converge into a vee

rockelk · 25th June 2019, 04:40 AM

The blade is not flat but is beveled. no marks, no 3. on the back side two fullers.

ariel · 25th June 2019, 05:49 AM

Without pics it is impossible to be sure, but I suspect that this kindjal may be a
fresh Georgian souvenir
Filigree is technically the simplest and cheapest decorative technique and is used widely on souvenir handles and scabbards.
If you manage to photograph it, I may change my uninformed guess.

Hoping to be wrong.

mariusgmioc · 25th June 2019, 06:41 AM

Here is my Georgian Qama (that's how they are called in Georgia).
I estimate it to be from around 1960 (but I might be wrong).
It has a very good pattern welded blade (I cleaned all the traces of rust you can see in the photos).
The inscription on the back says: "given to Imedadze from Kintsurashvili."
The filigree is of very high quality and is neither simple to make nor of lesser value.

mariusgmioc · 25th June 2019, 06:52 AM

This is another one of lesser quality.
The Qama bears the name of the owner: Aksnti Peradze (I suspect the first name is misspelled as it should have been Aksenti or Aksinti).

ariel · 25th June 2019, 09:43 AM

Yours are decent, with maker's marks, inscriptions, niello, gilding. Those were not mentioned, and I had something else in mind:-)
Eventually, we need to see the pics.

rockelk · 25th June 2019, 04:41 PM

I sincerely appreciate all the response. This is a great site. I I suspect this is at least a upper end tourist example. As soon as I get it in hand I will follow up with pictures. Again thanks to all. Sincerely rm

mariusgmioc · 25th June 2019, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yours are decent, with maker's marks, inscriptions, niello, gilding. Those were not mentioned, and I had something else in mind:-)
Eventually, we need to see the pics.

Yep. Quite different classes of workmanship.

PS: I only own the first one. The second one is not mine.
The two triple fullered larger ones in your example appear to be Daghestani or from Vladikavkaz... And I also have serious doubts about the Georgian origin of the "tourist" piece.

ariel · 26th June 2019, 12:22 AM

Modern souvenir makers adhere to no particular “style”. Flashy, generic, easy to make. Over there profit of $20 is a respectable sum.
There are some higher class sellers, pushing elaborate fantasies, sometimes even with old blades. Be attentive, careful and paranoid!

mariusgmioc · 26th June 2019, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Modern souvenir makers adhere to no particular “style”. Flashy, generic, easy to make. Over there profit of $20 is a respectable sum.
There are some higher class sellers, pushing elaborate fantasies, sometimes even with old blades. Be attentive, careful and paranoid!

Yep, fully agree! You can never be careful enough!

corrado26 · 26th June 2019, 11:48 AM

Nice to see my Qama once again

corrado26

mariusgmioc · 26th June 2019, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

Nice to see my Qama once again

corrado26

Was it yours?! It is an excellent piece!
Well, thank you for selling it and making me happy!

rockelk · 30th June 2019, 05:44 AM

New arrival, I have now in possession my shot in the dark. Only the blade is magnetic. There are light scratches on the back and I can see no copper underneath the scratch. I will have to get some dilute nitric to determine if it could be nickel silver. To me this is very nice filigree, but I would appreciate those with more experience to comment. Could this be black niello in the background with the silver polished? Has anyone seen a sheath done in this fashion? The blade has three fullers on the front and two on the back. I took a number of pictures. I hope I did not overdo it.

ariel · 30th June 2019, 01:34 PM

Thanks for the pics. Now we can stop guessing and see the reality.

Yours is a very modern one, being better than my ugly examples but infinitely worse than those presented by Marius. There is a wide variety of souvenirs, and yours is in the upper half of it: more careful filigree, better blade. But still, it has only tentative connection to the great Caucasian tradition.

One can deliberately collect recent imitations of anything: Chinese fakes of Rembrandt’s oils available in several sizes, Indian daggers with “ bird’s eye” mechanical Damascus and camel bone mosaic handles, stainless steel Turkish Zulfikars, plastic Egyptian scarabs etc. There are as many collections as there are collectors.

But the question “Why? What for?” never leaves my mind. There are inexpensive old kindjals on the market with a paipable aura of history and distinct ethnic styles. Why not acquire one of those instead?

But at the end of the day it is your decision.

ALEX · 8th July 2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockelk

... Could this be black niello in the background with the silver polished? Has anyone seen a sheath done in this fashion? ...

As Ariel noted, this is a modern kindjal. It is of white metal, they mostly use 'melchior alloy' which is mix of copper and nickel, or alpaka - another white metal alloy that visually resembles silver but has no silver content. There is also no niello at the background, it is painted or etched to a dark shade.
There are many modern daggers and swords of various quality being made now, mostly in Caucasus region. Of interest to this thread, here is another modern kindjal made in Georgia. Please note the carvings, niello-like decorations, beadwork and especially to note - the complex filigree on the back side of the scabbard. Even though it is hand made - nothing in it is real. Also, notice the number '3' stamped on the scabbard, a mark which Ariel already mentioned above.

rockelk · 9th July 2019, 12:49 AM

A poor picture, A even more poor description. The seller could only describe it as a dagger. 0 bids. I'm out $40. I suppose it is a cheap lesson from the University of Hard knocks. Thanks to all. With Regards, rm

mariusgmioc · 9th July 2019, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockelk

A poor picture, A even more poor description. The seller could only describe it as a dagger. 0 bids. I'm out $40. I suppose it is a cheap lesson from the University of Hard knocks. Thanks to all. With Regards, rm

For 40 bucks I'd say it is a great deal. Would have bought it myself for this little!
In conclusion: great buy!

kronckew · 9th July 2019, 11:16 AM

Reminds me of one of my earliest purchases, relegated to my OOPS closet.

rockelk · 9th July 2019, 03:52 PM

That sheath is a surprisingly similar style. There is probably more in my “opps” closet than I know. Hence, Masters from the University of Hard knocks.

rockelk · 9th July 2019, 05:08 PM

Given the comments and direction, I pondered / reflected, then went back to ebay and found in excess 200 “ kindjals”. Most (150+) are the obvious flat bladed three parallel fullers, with and without the “3”. Those souvenir knives range from six for $50 to $350 ea. plus shipping. Nowhere else than on e-bay can the phrase “Caveat emptor “be more true.

Among those I found of interest are two that have no marks but posse the linear forging grain structure. Two are the Russian ZOF style, pre 1914. Five or so have maker’s marks (stars, Zia mark and a few various other stamps. But I can find no reference depicting the various hallmarks that would validate / imply the article as a valid antique. Pleading ignorance, I would appreciate comments, as to, how to begin identifying valid antiques. With Regards, rm

25th June 2019, 03:43 AM	#1
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Kindjal, filigreed sheath. I was shown a Kindjal with 14 “of blade and three fullers. It feels as a robust blade, something you could really fight with. I am hesitating because the scabbard is completely and nicely covered with filigreed silver? I went thru K. Rivkin’s Arms and Armor and could find no examples of scabbards with filigree decorations. Does anyone know of collectable Kindjal sheathed in filigreed silver? I could get no pictures. So in advance I apologize. With, regards, rm

25th June 2019, 04:37 AM	#3
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Khindal three fullers long short long the middle is shorter and stops three inches short of the hilt. At the tapered point the fullers converge into a vee

25th June 2019, 04:40 AM	#4
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Khindal The blade is not flat but is beveled. no marks, no 3. on the back side two fullers. Last edited by rockelk; 25th June 2019 at 04:57 AM. Reason: update

25th June 2019, 06:41 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Here is my Georgian Qama (that's how they are called in Georgia). I estimate it to be from around 1960 (but I might be wrong). It has a very good pattern welded blade (I cleaned all the traces of rust you can see in the photos). The inscription on the back says: "given to Imedadze from Kintsurashvili." The filigree is of very high quality and is neither simple to make nor of lesser value. Attached Images

25th June 2019, 06:52 AM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	This is another one of lesser quality. The Qama bears the name of the owner: Aksnti Peradze (I suspect the first name is misspelled as it should have been Aksenti or Aksinti). Attached Images

25th June 2019, 04:15 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Are the fullers narrow and positioned as short- longer-short? Is the blade flat? Is there numeral 3 on the back of the scabbard?

25th June 2019, 05:49 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Without pics it is impossible to be sure, but I suspect that this kindjal may be a fresh Georgian souvenir Filigree is technically the simplest and cheapest decorative technique and is used widely on souvenir handles and scabbards. If you manage to photograph it, I may change my uninformed guess. Hoping to be wrong.

25th June 2019, 09:43 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yours are decent, with maker's marks, inscriptions, niello, gilding. Those were not mentioned, and I had something else in mind:-) Eventually, we need to see the pics. Attached Images

25th June 2019, 04:41 PM	#9
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Impressed I sincerely appreciate all the response. This is a great site. I I suspect this is at least a upper end tourist example. As soon as I get it in hand I will follow up with pictures. Again thanks to all. Sincerely rm

26th June 2019, 12:22 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Modern souvenir makers adhere to no particular “style”. Flashy, generic, easy to make. Over there profit of $20 is a respectable sum. There are some higher class sellers, pushing elaborate fantasies, sometimes even with old blades. Be attentive, careful and paranoid!

26th June 2019, 11:48 AM	#13
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Nice to see my Qama once again corrado26

30th June 2019, 05:44 AM	#15
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Home with new arrival New arrival, I have now in possession my shot in the dark. Only the blade is magnetic. There are light scratches on the back and I can see no copper underneath the scratch. I will have to get some dilute nitric to determine if it could be nickel silver. To me this is very nice filigree, but I would appreciate those with more experience to comment. Could this be black niello in the background with the silver polished? Has anyone seen a sheath done in this fashion? The blade has three fullers on the front and two on the back. I took a number of pictures. I hope I did not overdo it. Attached Images

30th June 2019, 01:34 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the pics. Now we can stop guessing and see the reality. Yours is a very modern one, being better than my ugly examples but infinitely worse than those presented by Marius. There is a wide variety of souvenirs, and yours is in the upper half of it: more careful filigree, better blade. But still, it has only tentative connection to the great Caucasian tradition. One can deliberately collect recent imitations of anything: Chinese fakes of Rembrandt’s oils available in several sizes, Indian daggers with “ bird’s eye” mechanical Damascus and camel bone mosaic handles, stainless steel Turkish Zulfikars, plastic Egyptian scarabs etc. There are as many collections as there are collectors. But the question “Why? What for?” never leaves my mind. There are inexpensive old kindjals on the market with a paipable aura of history and distinct ethnic styles. Why not acquire one of those instead? But at the end of the day it is your decision.

9th July 2019, 12:49 AM	#18
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Got what I paid for... A poor picture, A even more poor description. The seller could only describe it as a dagger. 0 bids. I'm out $40. I suppose it is a cheap lesson from the University of Hard knocks. Thanks to all. With Regards, rm

9th July 2019, 11:16 AM	#20
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	Reminds me of one of my earliest purchases, relegated to my OOPS closet. Attached Images

9th July 2019, 03:52 PM	#21
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	M.s. HK That sheath is a surprisingly similar style. There is probably more in my “opps” closet than I know. Hence, Masters from the University of Hard knocks.

9th July 2019, 05:08 PM	#22
rockelk Member Join Date: May 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 42	Caveat emptor Given the comments and direction, I pondered / reflected, then went back to ebay and found in excess 200 “ kindjals”. Most (150+) are the obvious flat bladed three parallel fullers, with and without the “3”. Those souvenir knives range from six for $50 to $350 ea. plus shipping. Nowhere else than on e-bay can the phrase “Caveat emptor “be more true. Among those I found of interest are two that have no marks but posse the linear forging grain structure. Two are the Russian ZOF style, pre 1914. Five or so have maker’s marks (stars, Zia mark and a few various other stamps. But I can find no reference depicting the various hallmarks that would validate / imply the article as a valid antique. Pleading ignorance, I would appreciate comments, as to, how to begin identifying valid antiques. With Regards, rm