Wedung or similar? Id needed

[SidJ]

Hi
Looking to id the big Asian knife please. Is it a wedung or similar? Balinese? Sumatran? 12.5 inch thick blade with an edge oartway on top spine, brass inlays under spine. No pamor. Blade has been used as the nicks show. No more images or details available presently. Thanks

[RobT]

Hi SidJ,

AFAIK, wedong serve a ceremonial purpose and, in the case of those worn in the kraton, are deliberately fashioned to be unsuitable as a weapon. The false edge on your blade would seem to defeat that design. I could be wrong but, given the size and shape of the integral blade bolster, I suspect that the hilt isn't original to the blade. The bolster looks like something found on a bade bade. All of the above notwithstanding, it is a very nice piece. It will be interesting to see what others have to say.

Sincerely,
RobT

[kai]

Hello Rob,

I fully agree this blade is not related at all!

This almost certainly is a Sumatran piece - no close relationship with any blade from Java or Bali here.

AFAIK, wedong serve a ceremonial purpose and, in the case of those worn in the kraton, are deliberately fashioned to be unsuitable as a weapon. The false edge on your blade would seem to defeat that design.

I don't believe the false edge alters function a lot - this still seems to be a chopping/slashing blade.

More importantly, while the wedung/wedong Jawa mainly is a ceremonial blade, it's (at least symbolic) function is basically being a machete to clear, for example, a trail for the ruler; I'd posit that its shape does reflect this (potential) use rather than being crippled on purpose. In a pinch, this blade type still lends itself to fighting if needed: it resembles heavy badik or smaller barung. Moreover, members of the court carried at least a keris which would pose a greater threat.

I could be wrong but, given the size and shape of the integral blade bolster, I suspect that the hilt isn't original to the blade. The bolster looks like something found on a bade bade.

For some Sumatran blades, there is a distinct step between hilt and bolster. Let's see if there are any hints for any recent modifications. I'd guess it's probably original.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Sid,

Congrats, a really neat piece - I especially like the inserted brass dots!

Please post more pics when it arrives.

Regards,
Kai

[SidJ]

Thanks both
I am grateful.
Yes the Sumatran rawit knives have this step between bolster and hilt and a somewhat similar shape. See pics in Zonneveld. The greneng reminds me of Rencong from Aceh. Micheal suggested Minang possibly. If Sumatra is this a fighting or utility blade or both? It bears signs of use and the brass inlays and details in construction are interesting suggesting perhaps a step up from a pure agrarian tool?
Best
Sid

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Sid,

Congrats, a really neat piece - I especially like the inserted brass dots!

Please post more pics when it arrives.

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai
Bought on a whim. Hopefully its worth it. I will certainly post pics when it arrives.
Best
Sid

[kai]

Bought on a whim. Hopefully its worth it.

Definitely, Sid - in case you ever get bored with it...

[kai]

Hello Sid,

The greneng reminds me of Rencong from Aceh. Micheal suggested Minang possibly.

Yes, this feature might well be based on the Atjeh rencong.

I'd tend to guess at the northern Minang border region or, probably, Mandailing/Angkola (areas heavily affected during the padri wars).

If Sumatra is this a fighting or utility blade or both? It bears signs of use and the brass inlays and details in construction are interesting suggesting perhaps a step up from a pure agrarian tool?

Also tools are often embellished; this looks like an everyday carry to me.

Regards,
Kai

[SidJ]

Kai
Pic added. Big and robust blade.

[David]

Originally Posted by RobT

AFAIK, wedong serve a ceremonial purpose and, in the case of those worn in the kraton, are deliberately fashioned to be unsuitable as a weapon. The false edge on your blade would seem to defeat that design.

Nice knife Sid. While i know nothing about it i have to agree that it is not a wedhung. I don't believe it is a Javanese blade either. I tend to agree with the theory of a Sumatran origin.
Rob, again, while i generally agree, i must point out that my own wedhung, which is a early Mataram variety, does indeed have a false edge, so that alone is not a valid reason to dismiss a blade as a wedhung. Hopefully you can see it well enough in this photograph, but i can assure you that there is definitely an intentional false edge on this blade.
I will also add that while these are for the most part ceremonial blades, that does not necessarily mean that they were never applied to practical purposes within the keraton. If your king wanted something cut in the keraton, that task could very well be accomplished with a wedhung.

[RobT]

David,

Thanks for showing me this. I never saw a wedung with a false edge before. Valuable information. I have to say that, in addition to being a great looking piece, your blade looks slim enough to be used in a pinch as a point weapon.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

I have to say that, in addition to being a great looking piece, your blade looks slim enough to be used in a pinch as a point weapon.

Hello Rob,

A wedhung isn't a weapon! It's a pure ceremonial "weapon".

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, in later times, this is so, but I cannot really specify "later times". My best guess is late Majapahit to early Islamic.

The the word "wedhung" means "axe" in Old Javanese, & truly old wedhung were in fact a tool that was required to be worn at court in order to show that high ranking nobles were still servants of their lord and were willing to cut a way through the jungle for him.

Some very early wedhung are great big hulking whackers, as are some very recent ones. I have some that were made on order for a royal house, and then the order was cancelled, and these were made specifically as a tribute to the past, even though intended to be worn as required dress.

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

Yes, I know. I only want to point out that a wedhung isn't a weapon because Rob seems to think like this.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Sid, you have got a very nice and unusual knife there! Congrats!

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

OK Detlef, gotcha.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, I know. I only want to point out that a wedhung isn't a weapon because Rob seems to think like this.

I don't think Rob was thinking that wedhung were used as weapons. In comment #2 he clearly states that wedhung were unsuitable to be weapons and pointed out that the false edge on on Sid's pointed to it not being a wedhung because of this. He was responding to me pointing out that a false edge was not unheard of on these blades and showing him mine, which does indeed have such an edge. He is not incorrect that my wedhung could be used "in a pinch" as a point weapon. That is not to say that it would be.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I don't think Rob was thinking that wedhung were used as weapons. In comment #2 he clearly states that wedhung were unsuitable to be weapons and pointed out that the false edge on on Sid's pointed to it not being a wedhung because of this. He was responding to me pointing out that a false edge was not unheard of on these blades and showing him mine, which does indeed have such an edge. He is not incorrect that my wedhung could be used "in a pinch" as a point weapon. That is not to say that it would be.

Hello David,

You will be correct. Obviously I misunderstood!

Regards,
Detlef