Use of the term krabi versus darb

Mark · 29th December 2004, 04:25 PM

Not very long ago I remember seeing a post (I think on the EEWRS) that noted that there was a difference in how the terms "krabi" and "darb/daab" were used by the Thai -- something about one referring to native swords and the other referring to "foreign" swords. My memory is very sketchy, and I can't find the post with the search function.

Does anyone else remember this, or the basic information from the post?

RhysMichael · 29th December 2004, 06:30 PM

Mark
pretty sure it was in a post from Dan so he would be the best to ask. I remember it saying that dharb/daab would be used for any blade foreign or thai made but that krabi was used only for Thai blades. But as memory is trecherous I am trying to find the post

wilked aka Khun Deng · 30th December 2004, 01:32 AM

Actually since that post the information has improved. Krabi, as used by the Thais, is a term specifically used for sabres. Every reference, except in that first one I referenced, has applied the term to a sword with a typical sabre hilt and guard most with the long thin hand guard. Many times the blade in that weapon is either an imported blade or a local blade much the same as those Bangkok era blades (thinner and parallel, without the belly swell). An example is shown below

I have seen this term used in reference to the fighting style Krabi Krabong but the dictionary just defines krabi as sword and krabong as staff. Of course the dictionary also lists Daab only as sword with no qualification. However in the museum labels, book illustrations and discussions the term krabi has, so far, exclusively been used on sabers. In this poor photo you can just make out that the second rack of weapons and the two crossed on the wall in the background are European style sabers - they are labeled in Thai as krabi while the others were labeled as "meed daab" or "daab", "meed" by itself means knive. Don't get confused by the phonetics I use, there are at least three different sets of phonetics that I know of when translating Thai "darb" is just as correct - it is literally "D" - "long soft A vowel(aa)" - "B" but it really sounds more like "darb" when heard by western ears.

Mark · 30th December 2004, 02:23 AM

So, daab refers to what we generically call "dha", meaning dha-lwe (long blade, simple round handle, etc.), and krabi means saber, with the knuckle guard, etc.? Any connotations of foreign versus domestic swords in the terms?

Andrew · 30th December 2004, 02:45 AM

In my research of Thai and Burmese martial arts, the term krabi is invariably used interchangeably with daab or darb to refer to a single sword. I've not seen any differentiation between the two words for different forms of sword, but it does make sense.

As an aside, the term for one sword held in each hand, a common Krabi-Krabong technique, is usually refered to as daab sawng meu. These are always the shorter-bladed, longer-handled swords like those featured in Dan's avatar.

Philip · 30th December 2004, 04:39 AM

The design of the fittings on the sheath of the "krabi" shown above is a dead-ringer to the scabbards on a type of Vietnamese saber called a "guom". Note the three metal fittings, with indented contours, the markedly tapering chape with a graceful upswept terminus, and the position of the upper suspension ring (very near the throat). All these features are in common with the scabbard of a typical "guom", which on better examples is mounted in embossed silver. The difference is mainly in material: Vietnamese scabbards are frequently of rosewood, delicately inlaid with MOP.

Many guom have knucklebow guards, like this krabi, albeit of different contour and decorative treatment. I have always attributed the presence of knucklebow hilts in Vietnam to French influence, but after looking at some rather similar "parang nabur" hilts, I'm starting to broaden my outlook. Now that I see this Thai scabbard, I'm wondering even more.

I plan on giving a talk on Vietnamese swords in Timonium this coming March, and will have a few examples of guom to show. 'Will look forward to discussing these points with you guys there.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 30th December 2004, 07:03 AM

Just as I was finishing this long post explaining the Thai language and alphabet and my conclusions, one of my buddy's a native Thai stopped in. Here's his explanation.

He says "daab" is a low class term used for common warrior swords of a certain type and pointed to a picture of a dha. "Krabi" is a mid-class term used for the swords of officers of a certain type and then id'ed the sabers in my book. There is no high class term for sword, the sword itself will have a "name" as in "Andura the Flame of the West" (can you tell I did the Lord of the Rings marathon on Christmas) preceded by the word "prasang" which is used to identify any item of high class use.

So
daab/darb is dha
krabi is an officer's saber
And the swords of the upper class can be of any type, dha, krabi, or japanese but will have their own unique name.

Philip, interesting note on the resemblance of Vietnamese sabers. Now that you mention it I did note the same type sabers held in old pictures of Vietnamese and Khmer royalty. I won't be able be at Timonium but maybe you could post it afterwards.

Radu Transylvanicus · 30th December 2004, 08:34 PM

Krabi-krabong becomed now Dhabi-Dhabong ?

Nobody Siamese corrected me when I reffered to the Thai sword ( the dha as we know it) used in this sport as ,,krabi,, ?

wilked aka Khun Deng · 31st December 2004, 12:27 AM

Don't know why the contradiction in terms however I have my suspicions. Thai's love words that rhyme or have a jingle such as many of the sayings they have "Khrai kai kai gai ti kai" (who sell's chicken eggs at the camp) it all sounds like the same word when said fast and means nothing they just like to say it, another favorite of the Thai soldiers is "mia ma mia mee mia mi ma mia mi mee" (if my wife is with me I have a wife, if my wife isn't with me I don't have a wife) even the women crack up at this one -go figure. I think they used the term krabi just because it flows with krabong.

I've now asked 5 Thai Nationals, 3 gave me the same explaination I have already passed on and drew pictures to verify the other two were unaware of any difference. I suspect this is probably the same case with many cultures while they know the word they don't know the varites implied by the word. I know many in America that could not tell you the difference between a saber and an a scimitar but they know they are both swords.

Titus Pullo · 13th January 2006, 06:54 AM

Being a Thai and knowing the modern Thai language, I know that Krabi refers to as to narrow double edge swords, or daab song kom meaning double edge swords...like the Chinese Jians. The term daab is used very loosely, I guess. But when they talk about big European swords, like the Vikings', they call them daab, also. My guess is it's probably because the big double ege swords can inflict serious wounds on someone like the Thai daabs. Officially, in the Thai language, I think krabi is a double edge sword big or small. I'm not that sure either because I spent all my time here in America, learning English--although, I can read a little Thai. I have to ask my mom...she's very good in writting Thai grammatically correctly.

Andrew · 13th January 2006, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the information, Pullo! Dan has been out of communication for a long time due to work commitments, and you have no idea how excited I am to have a Thai speaker on the forum.

Do you happen to know anyone who can read Burmese?

Titus Pullo · 14th January 2006, 11:00 PM

I'm sorry, but I don't know anybody that can read Burmese! Burmese and Thai languages are totally two different languages, eventhough we are close neighbor. And I'm really excited to be here, too! And...sorry for the late reply!

CharlesS · 17th January 2006, 05:54 PM

This thread very much reminds me of the old Indonesian debate...when is a "parang" a "pedang" or "klewang" or "golok".....

It sounds like the varied Thai terms are moving very much in the same direction, with "daab" or "darb" being the generic (like "parang")...and other words trying to create a specific idea added to the original hoping to create a specific image in the mind's eye.

Just a thought.

PUFF · 28th February 2006, 01:23 PM

Not only you foreign guys, many Thais often mix Dahb with Krabi.

Rather than making my own definition for Dahb and Krabi, I should tell you how most modern-central Thais caragorize weapons. 'coz, there are regional words and there are old words, which are differ from the major population but we will talk about that in another thread.

First of all, all Thais will call stuff like this and also Dha as "Dahb" or sometime "Dahb Thai" which literally means traditional Thai sword (or similar stuff.

)

http://thaiblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1854

And then katana (wakizashi is included) are call "Dahb Yipoon" or "Dahb Samurai" which means Nippon sword. These blades are clearly fall in "Dahb" catagory.

Most single-edged sword such as persian, indian, indonesian are in "Dahb" catagory too. Only their origin were added to its name.

There is an exeptional. There are words for officer or calvary sabre and similar blade with guard, the official Thai word is "Krabi" while general term could be "Dahb Fa-rhang" which means foreign (western) sword. (should I remind you that, in Thai language, there are general, official and royal words for some classy stuff like sabre.

)

However, double-edged chinese Jian mostly in "Krabi" catagory. This because of chinese Dao already occupied "Dahb" catagory.

Although having two sharp edges, european medival longsword always "Dahb" for Thais. To make a specific call, "Dahb Asawin" or medival full-plated knight sword might be used. Never been in "Krabi" catagory.

PUFF · 28th February 2006, 01:33 PM

For most Thai people, Krabi represent Sabre type "Dahb" and Krabon means plain polearm like staff or club. But from my research Krabi-Krabong words has even more complex story.

As you may know, Krabi-Krabong is a kind of demonstration/sparing/contest which was popular during late Authaya-Early Ratanakosin era. But the name haven't been used for such game until early Ratanakosin. Before that tmie, only "Dahb" sparing, staff sparing, "Krabi" sparing... exist.

Later, collections of sparing things were demonstrated in a single day. Now comes the name. According to Ramayana, "Krabi" has another meaning which is monkey soldier. And "Krabong" literally represent the giant tribe. So, "Krabi-Krabong" stand for Agile vs Powerful weapon demonstration/sparing/contest. The weapon in "agile" or "Krabi" class are Dahb, Krabi, small sickle, hand axe, dagger, short triden etc... And "Krabong" class will include staff, spear, "Ngaw" (Naginata-liked weapon) and polearms. Things were changed little by little by time. But you will notice quick vs powerful weapons fight is included in the show. And unlike old style "Dahb" scool, "Krabi-Krabong" schools always teach both agile and powerful weapons.

29th December 2004, 04:25 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Use of the term krabi versus darb Not very long ago I remember seeing a post (I think on the EEWRS) that noted that there was a difference in how the terms "krabi" and "darb/daab" were used by the Thai -- something about one referring to native swords and the other referring to "foreign" swords. My memory is very sketchy, and I can't find the post with the search function. Does anyone else remember this, or the basic information from the post?

30th December 2004, 01:32 AM	#3
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Krabi Actually since that post the information has improved. Krabi, as used by the Thais, is a term specifically used for sabres. Every reference, except in that first one I referenced, has applied the term to a sword with a typical sabre hilt and guard most with the long thin hand guard. Many times the blade in that weapon is either an imported blade or a local blade much the same as those Bangkok era blades (thinner and parallel, without the belly swell). An example is shown below I have seen this term used in reference to the fighting style Krabi Krabong but the dictionary just defines krabi as sword and krabong as staff. Of course the dictionary also lists Daab only as sword with no qualification. However in the museum labels, book illustrations and discussions the term krabi has, so far, exclusively been used on sabers. In this poor photo you can just make out that the second rack of weapons and the two crossed on the wall in the background are European style sabers - they are labeled in Thai as krabi while the others were labeled as "meed daab" or "daab", "meed" by itself means knive. Don't get confused by the phonetics I use, there are at least three different sets of phonetics that I know of when translating Thai "darb" is just as correct - it is literally "D" - "long soft A vowel(aa)" - "B" but it really sounds more like "darb" when heard by western ears.

30th December 2004, 04:39 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	scabbard caught my eye The design of the fittings on the sheath of the "krabi" shown above is a dead-ringer to the scabbards on a type of Vietnamese saber called a "guom". Note the three metal fittings, with indented contours, the markedly tapering chape with a graceful upswept terminus, and the position of the upper suspension ring (very near the throat). All these features are in common with the scabbard of a typical "guom", which on better examples is mounted in embossed silver. The difference is mainly in material: Vietnamese scabbards are frequently of rosewood, delicately inlaid with MOP. Many guom have knucklebow guards, like this krabi, albeit of different contour and decorative treatment. I have always attributed the presence of knucklebow hilts in Vietnam to French influence, but after looking at some rather similar "parang nabur" hilts, I'm starting to broaden my outlook. Now that I see this Thai scabbard, I'm wondering even more. I plan on giving a talk on Vietnamese swords in Timonium this coming March, and will have a few examples of guom to show. 'Will look forward to discussing these points with you guys there.

30th December 2004, 07:03 AM	#7
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Foreign conotations Just as I was finishing this long post explaining the Thai language and alphabet and my conclusions, one of my buddy's a native Thai stopped in. Here's his explanation. He says "daab" is a low class term used for common warrior swords of a certain type and pointed to a picture of a dha. "Krabi" is a mid-class term used for the swords of officers of a certain type and then id'ed the sabers in my book. There is no high class term for sword, the sword itself will have a "name" as in "Andura the Flame of the West" (can you tell I did the Lord of the Rings marathon on Christmas) preceded by the word "prasang" which is used to identify any item of high class use. So daab/darb is dha krabi is an officer's saber And the swords of the upper class can be of any type, dha, krabi, or japanese but will have their own unique name. Philip, interesting note on the resemblance of Vietnamese sabers. Now that you mention it I did note the same type sabers held in old pictures of Vietnamese and Khmer royalty. I won't be able be at Timonium but maybe you could post it afterwards.

30th December 2004, 08:34 PM	#8
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Krabi-krabong becomed now Dhabi-Dhabong ? Nobody Siamese corrected me when I reffered to the Thai sword ( the dha as we know it) used in this sport as ,,krabi,, ? Attached Images

29th December 2004, 06:30 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Mark pretty sure it was in a post from Dan so he would be the best to ask. I remember it saying that dharb/daab would be used for any blade foreign or thai made but that krabi was used only for Thai blades. But as memory is trecherous I am trying to find the post

30th December 2004, 02:23 AM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	So, daab refers to what we generically call "dha", meaning dha-lwe (long blade, simple round handle, etc.), and krabi means saber, with the knuckle guard, etc.? Any connotations of foreign versus domestic swords in the terms?

30th December 2004, 02:45 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	In my research of Thai and Burmese martial arts, the term krabi is invariably used interchangeably with daab or darb to refer to a single sword. I've not seen any differentiation between the two words for different forms of sword, but it does make sense. As an aside, the term for one sword held in each hand, a common Krabi-Krabong technique, is usually refered to as daab sawng meu. These are always the shorter-bladed, longer-handled swords like those featured in Dan's avatar.

31st December 2004, 12:27 AM	#9
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Don't know why the contradiction in terms however I have my suspicions. Thai's love words that rhyme or have a jingle such as many of the sayings they have "Khrai kai kai gai ti kai" (who sell's chicken eggs at the camp) it all sounds like the same word when said fast and means nothing they just like to say it, another favorite of the Thai soldiers is "mia ma mia mee mia mi ma mia mi mee" (if my wife is with me I have a wife, if my wife isn't with me I don't have a wife) even the women crack up at this one -go figure. I think they used the term krabi just because it flows with krabong. I've now asked 5 Thai Nationals, 3 gave me the same explaination I have already passed on and drew pictures to verify the other two were unaware of any difference. I suspect this is probably the same case with many cultures while they know the word they don't know the varites implied by the word. I know many in America that could not tell you the difference between a saber and an a scimitar but they know they are both swords.

13th January 2006, 06:54 AM	#10
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Being a Thai and knowing the modern Thai language, I know that Krabi refers to as to narrow double edge swords, or daab song kom meaning double edge swords...like the Chinese Jians. The term daab is used very loosely, I guess. But when they talk about big European swords, like the Vikings', they call them daab, also. My guess is it's probably because the big double ege swords can inflict serious wounds on someone like the Thai daabs. Officially, in the Thai language, I think krabi is a double edge sword big or small. I'm not that sure either because I spent all my time here in America, learning English--although, I can read a little Thai. I have to ask my mom...she's very good in writting Thai grammatically correctly.

13th January 2006, 02:16 PM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks for the information, Pullo! Dan has been out of communication for a long time due to work commitments, and you have no idea how excited I am to have a Thai speaker on the forum. Do you happen to know anyone who can read Burmese?

14th January 2006, 11:00 PM	#12
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I'm sorry, but I don't know anybody that can read Burmese! Burmese and Thai languages are totally two different languages, eventhough we are close neighbor. And I'm really excited to be here, too! And...sorry for the late reply!

17th January 2006, 05:54 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	This thread very much reminds me of the old Indonesian debate...when is a "parang" a "pedang" or "klewang" or "golok"..... It sounds like the varied Thai terms are moving very much in the same direction, with "daab" or "darb" being the generic (like "parang")...and other words trying to create a specific idea added to the original hoping to create a specific image in the mind's eye. Just a thought.

28th February 2006, 01:23 PM	#14
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Not only you foreign guys, many Thais often mix Dahb with Krabi. Rather than making my own definition for Dahb and Krabi, I should tell you how most modern-central Thais caragorize weapons. 'coz, there are regional words and there are old words, which are differ from the major population but we will talk about that in another thread. First of all, all Thais will call stuff like this and also Dha as "Dahb" or sometime "Dahb Thai" which literally means traditional Thai sword (or similar stuff. ) http://thaiblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1854 And then katana (wakizashi is included) are call "Dahb Yipoon" or "Dahb Samurai" which means Nippon sword. These blades are clearly fall in "Dahb" catagory. Most single-edged sword such as persian, indian, indonesian are in "Dahb" catagory too. Only their origin were added to its name. There is an exeptional. There are words for officer or calvary sabre and similar blade with guard, the official Thai word is "Krabi" while general term could be "Dahb Fa-rhang" which means foreign (western) sword. (should I remind you that, in Thai language, there are general, official and royal words for some classy stuff like sabre. ) However, double-edged chinese Jian mostly in "Krabi" catagory. This because of chinese Dao already occupied "Dahb" catagory. Although having two sharp edges, european medival longsword always "Dahb" for Thais. To make a specific call, "Dahb Asawin" or medival full-plated knight sword might be used. Never been in "Krabi" catagory.

28th February 2006, 01:33 PM	#15
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	For most Thai people, Krabi represent Sabre type "Dahb" and Krabon means plain polearm like staff or club. But from my research Krabi-Krabong words has even more complex story. As you may know, Krabi-Krabong is a kind of demonstration/sparing/contest which was popular during late Authaya-Early Ratanakosin era. But the name haven't been used for such game until early Ratanakosin. Before that tmie, only "Dahb" sparing, staff sparing, "Krabi" sparing... exist. Later, collections of sparing things were demonstrated in a single day. Now comes the name. According to Ramayana, "Krabi" has another meaning which is monkey soldier. And "Krabong" literally represent the giant tribe. So, "Krabi-Krabong" stand for Agile vs Powerful weapon demonstration/sparing/contest. The weapon in "agile" or "Krabi" class are Dahb, Krabi, small sickle, hand axe, dagger, short triden etc... And "Krabong" class will include staff, spear, "Ngaw" (Naginata-liked weapon) and polearms. Things were changed little by little by time. But you will notice quick vs powerful weapons fight is included in the show. And unlike old style "Dahb" scool, "Krabi-Krabong" schools always teach both agile and powerful weapons. Last edited by PUFF; 1st March 2006 at 12:55 PM.