Is this Sham Wootz?? On a Wahabi Jambiya??

[archer]

Awhile back I posted this Jambiya and used the sellers photos, opinion was it is Shear Steel. I found information about this type of steel but photos seemed scarce.
I've included some better photos of the blade and I'm very curious to hear your opinions. Photos from M. M. Khorasanis Arms and Armor from Iran, show Persian Sham and Striped Sham. This blade starts out grainy the gradually goes linear, maybe due to scarfed billets?

Very recently I found that there was an exceptionally nice Jambiya, that has a Persian wootz blade http://www.antigaarabia.co​m/uploads/102-103.pdf
Well this got my interest going again. I must be overrating my blade or as has been asked before. Are there others lurking that have been overlooked??
So, please lets your opinions. Thank you in advance, Steve

The previous post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Wootz+Wahabi

[ALEX]

Steve,
You bring a good topic. Visually, it does look like sham, and the opinions will vary. My personal opinion is toward layered or shear steel. Sham is one of the wootz patterns, and based on complexity and type, I'd not attribute this particular pattern to wootz. Some references above are M. Khorasani's opinions, and leave some room for discussion...

[Lew]

What I find funny is that the pattern fades towards the end near where the blade meets the hilt and there is a defined edge which could be some type of faux etch ? Could be shear steel or blister steel or even some type of local carbonized wrought iron?

[AJ1356]

Not really familiar with this but Shaam also could be written as Sham is the ancient name for Syria (where Damascuss is) would it be that is one name for Damascuss patern? Or it could just mean fake

[Richard Furrer]

I would say it is not crucible steel, but something else.
I would say the same to several of those book photos as well.

It is still very nice.
Ric

[archer]

Ric, Your input is always valued your hands on experience in making and forging shear and crucible steels gives first hand expertise. Your comment that this is something else, has impact. Does the apparent pattern loss Lew mentions give us a clue?

Alex, Your wootz opinions have always been of interest. This could be Mechanically produced. I've included a couple of photos where I thought to
be the result of scarfing. the thicker pattern at the hilt may be the result of
extra forging required in shaping the hilt vs. the finer lines toward the blade
tip. I'm guessing that this pattern was visible even unetched.

Lew, Your point about the disappearance of the pattern in the hilt area may
well be a clue to how the blade was made. Most etched Jambiyas show a V
of some sort where they were quenched in tempering. I've included odd lines
on My other Wahabite Jambiya and a photo of one with typical V but the pattern etched again towards the hilt???

AJ, Your correct Sham is a lesser quality Crucible steel and no doubt the root for the English word " sham". Sham Shir always gives Me pause. Are you serving in Afghanistan now?

Thank you all for your interest and great input.

[ALEX]

interesting thread! there's another related link. Also, below are close-ups of pattern weld Ottoman blade, Russian wootz shashka blade (presumably by Anosov), and Ottoman Pala sham blade. All share similar visual effects and hard to tell which one is which. One thing to consider is that Sham is mostly low-contrast pattern, and if it shows clear and high-contrast - it's unlikely sham.

[archer]

Shots from Oriental Arms Search for Sham and Low contrast Sham. added a couple Damascus as well. To help us decide with visual aid.

[Richard Furrer]

Archer that "V" is a matter of cooling the steel in the quench..notice on the first the edges are darker photos 1 and 4 and the "V" points to the tip...as the blade is quenched it cools faster on the thin edges and then the center...so when dipped in, held and then removed the center will still be hot...which make the "V" pattern.

photo 5 shows the "V" pointing the other way..which is really not possible on the typical quench.

The photos from Oriental Arms appears to me to be a different material source than what crucible steel forms..far closer to well forged shear steel or bloomery steels with levels of phosphorous. It is in fact possible to get a surface pattern when you have no carbon in the iron at all...though I believe all those pictured are in fact some form of steel...I can not say with any authority what that steel is.

I'd like to chemically analyze some of that material.....I am at a point now where I have seen many things and some of my opinions have changed even since last year...I'm trying to be opinionated for all the right reasons and not because I simply have not seen something before. To say something "IS" something is a bold statement...and knowing the chemistry or how it looks under a microscope is one more page to the book so to speak.

In fact I am gathering samples of various ethnic blades for that reason...to create a sample body.

Whatever it is it obviously was a traditional material...I am not saying any of these are not old...just arguably not crucible steel. I would throw none of then out of my collection should they one day join.



Ric

[Jeff D]

I vote it is acid etched. As stated by Lew.

Jeff

[archer]

Lew and Jeff while it's possible the blade pattern was etched. the area near the
hilt may be the burnishing sometimes done with a scratched design on Omani and Yemeni Khanjars. Designs hard to see and I no longer have it. I'm sure you are familiar with it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by archer

Awhile back I posted this Jambiya and used the sellers photos, opinion was it is Shear Steel. I found information about this type of steel but photos seemed scarce.
I've included some better photos of the blade and I'm very curious to hear your opinions. Photos from M. M. Khorasanis Arms and Armor from Iran, show Persian Sham and Striped Sham. This blade starts out grainy the gradually goes linear, maybe due to scarfed billets?

Very recently I found that there was an exceptionally nice Jambiya, that has a Persian wootz blade http://www.antigaarabia.co​m/uploads/102-103.pdf
Well this got my interest going again. I must be overrating my blade or as has been asked before. Are there others lurking that have been overlooked??
So, please lets your opinions. Thank you in advance, Steve

The previous post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Wootz+Wahabi

Salaams archer ~ Wootz is not my speciality but...Shams? That means sun in arabic and if related to Shamshir is the Safavid weapon first brought to Irans Royal Court equivalent of a blademakers guild..by a Damascus master blade maker. I have the details somewhere...Therefor if shams is the eastern word it means something different as the english word would indicate fake or false no? So we have a terminology situation. The blade looks ok to me ... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Lew]

Archer

The only way to be sure is putting it under the microscope so without it in hand we really can't be sure . I studied the making of pattern welded steel for quite a number of years before I went rogue and started collecting antique pieces and your dagger does remind me of simple case hardened wrought iron if not the surface was just acid etched .

[AJ1356]

Archer, the word shamshir شمشیر just meants sword in Farsi, to my knowledge it is not a combination of sham and shir, shir شیر however by itself mean lion. Sham شم by itself does not mean anything, Shaam شام on the other hand besides the anciant name for Syria, is also referred to the time right after sunset, or also when darkness covers the sky. I know for sure Damascuss pattern swords were called شمشیر دمشق swords from Damascuss. Yeah I am deployed in Afghanistan right now.

[A.alnakkas]

Interesting information, AJ. I think the term "Sham" for the Sham pattern is refering to what is now Syria indeed.

(off-topic: I always thought AJ is Afghan!)

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Archer, the word shamshir شمشیر just meants sword in Farsi, to my knowledge it is not a combination of sham and shir, shir شیر however by itself mean lion. Sham شم by itself does not mean anything, Shaam شام on the other hand besides the anciant name for Syria, is also referred to the time right after sunset, or also when darkness covers the sky. I know for sure Damascuss pattern swords were called شمشیر دمشق swords from Damascuss. Yeah I am deployed in Afghanistan right now.

here's complete reference:-) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar
then click on Shamshir link.

Persian/Farsi and Arabic are different languages:-) Shamsheer means "lion's tale" in Farsi. Another reference - a possible origin from the Persian shim- or shamshir. This, in turn, is said to be derived from Middle Persian "shafshēr" meaning; "lion's claw" (sham = claw, shir = lion), in reference to the sword's curve. However, this is likely a folk etymology, as the word is already attested in Middle persian with the meaning "sword".
Now, back to the Sham discussion:-)

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I vote it is acid etched. As stated by Lew.

Jeff

Jeff,
It is indeed acid etched..as are most all the crucible steel blades to show anything other than a mere hint of pattern when the light is just right, but the pattern which the acid reveals is in the steel not simply acid etched into its surface with a resist.

Ric

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Jeff,
It is indeed acid etched..as are most all the crucible steel blades to show anything other than a mere hint of pattern when the light is just right, but the pattern which the acid reveals is in the steel not simply acid etched into its surface with a resist.

Ric

Hi Ric,

No not acid etched to bring out the wootz pattern, but a surface acid etched pattern. Very similar to the method used on European presentation blades. I will see if I can find a reference.

Jeff

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Ric,

No not acid etched to bring out the wootz pattern, but a surface acid etched pattern. Very similar to the method used on European presentation blades. I will see if I can find a reference.

Jeff

I disagree. I believe it is in the steel.
Ric

[archer]

Ric, I'll re etch the top blade in the fifth photo, it maybe a burnished area?? Note the one in photo 4 has the V in both directions too. The Balkan jambia has the same markings on both sides. Is is possible after annealing the tang hilt end was tempered for strength /rigidity.

I think you are on target with the not likely crucible steel and only testing would tell. I'm not
convinced it is Shear steel leaving that open. It's most likely Mechanically produced given the
thicker finer graduations going down the blade. I'm more certain now that what we see is in
the steel. The smoother area at the hilt faintly has grain (pattern) continuing back. So pattern is likely real and suppressed by burnishing.

The other blade Dharia Jambiya likely from the same previous owner is even crazier. Here is a picture after some prep. Shot under a lighted magnifier. A pattern continues back into the polished area I appreciate the help from all of you Steve

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Lew

Archer

The only way to be sure is putting it under the microscope so without it in hand we really can't be sure . I studied the making of pattern welded steel for quite a number of years before I went rogue and started collecting antique pieces and your dagger does remind me of simple case hardened wrought iron if not the surface was just acid etched .

must say my intial reaction is also case hardend, heavily forged old wrought iron, {pre. mass production.} seen the same linear appearence before in such material..

Of course that doesnt mean other iron,steel,alloy mixes couldnt have the same appearence.

Spiral

[Lew]

Ric

I saw your YouTube video on shear steel if you could please provide us with some finished examples etched of course It may clarify things a bit more.

Thanks

Lew

[archer]

Again I thank you all for your incite and information I book marked the links for future reference. AJ, thanks for your service, hoping you all catch freedom real birds soon.
I'm so far over my head with this etch on the second Dharia and haven't a clue what kind of steel this is. dilute Phosphoric allows me to see some sort of pattern. When I try very diluted Ferric chloride I quickly get dark staining on most of inner and outer edges, hardening? It is all low definition and weird spider web to all most palm print like. Here are a few photos , after a bit more polishing I think this blade likely didn't have the polish needed to etch well. The opaque and cloudy areas are disappearing. another light etch should bring out a more stable pattern.