New sword, Bosnia?

Nagawarrior · 11th December 2010, 09:17 PM

Just found this sword.
What do you think?
I'm thinking Bosnia.

Battara · 12th December 2010, 06:21 AM

Been a while - welcome back!

The hilt does not strike me as particularly Bosnian but more Afghanistan or there abouts...........

Nagawarrior · 12th December 2010, 10:22 AM

Nice to be able to submit a new piece for discussion Jose. Thanks for the welcome back.
This item was labled Russian in the little shop I found it at. I kinda had a Ottoman gut feeling from it. The little cirlces on the handle reminded me of the handles of Bosnian Bichaq. The lobed pommel also reminds of pieces from the Balkan area. The seller might have seen a similarity to the Russian Shashqa. I've seen the circles on Afgan pieces as well.
At 26" over all with 19" blade, its much larger than the typical Bichaq though. Look forward to futher comment.

ariel · 12th December 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Been a while - welcome back!

The hilt does not strike me as particularly Bosnian but more Afghanistan or there abouts...........

Jose,
I think I know where the feeling comes from: the integral bolster. These were widespread on Bulgarian ( and, likely, nearby) examples.
Russian masters in Zlatoust made gorgeous yataghans, but, like many things Russians, those were grossly overdone and very decorative.
Recently, I got involved in the discussion of Crimean Tatar weapons: those were very similar to the Balkan Bulgarian karakulaks.
Would be very interesting to look at the close-ups: decorations might be revealing. I seem to be able to see some kind of circle with rays near the ricasso: Tatar tamga?
If that's the case, since the Crimea became a part of the Russian Empire, the "Russian" attribution might be somewhat correct.

Atlantia · 12th December 2010, 05:22 PM

It does look Balkan to me. Can we see the decoration on the scabbard and the stitching on the leather part close-up?

Nagawarrior · 12th December 2010, 06:49 PM

Here are some more pictures. I hope they help. Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated.

Atlantia · 12th December 2010, 06:56 PM

That curly wire connector where the leather is joined is a style I see on Greek/Balkan/Turkish pieces.
As Battara says, the circles are familiar from Afghan items, but now that we can see the other details, I'd say its more to the west.
It doesn't look Greek to me, possibly Turkish, but Balkan seems favourite (IMHO).
The decoration on the scabbard with the chevron and orb is very distinctive. Must be a giveaway clue for someone to ID it?

TVV · 12th December 2010, 10:30 PM

The dot in circle decoration from what I have read is supposed to signify heaven, with the little dot in the center symbolizing Allah's central position in the universe. As a result, it is not surprisingly very wide spread and typical of many areas, making attribution based solely on this symbol hard.

I am attaching a picture of some Bosnian knives, where you can clearly see similar decoration on the hilt of the second knife from the left. My guess therefore would be Western Balkans.

Regards,
Teodor

Battara · 13th December 2010, 08:05 PM

That is very helpful TVV. Did not know that about the dot and circle. I have seen these on Balkan arms as well, but not lumped together in this type of configuration except on Afgani/north central Asian pieces.

What you said does make sense of the use of some form of dot and circle motif all over the Islamic world.

Nagawarrior · 14th December 2010, 12:50 AM

Thank you for all your comments. I really appreciate your input. I've searched all over the internet and haven't found another sword exactly like mine. The Bosnian pieces are the closest. Unless other evidence surfaces I'll keep with the Balkan origin.

Rumpel · 24th December 2010, 08:18 PM

A kurban noz?

Nagawarrior · 25th December 2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

A kurban noz?

Do tell. Googled this and nothing came up except a reference to animal sacrifice.

Rumpel · 7th January 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagawarrior

Do tell. Googled this and nothing came up except a reference to animal sacrifice.

Sorry, only just saw this. In Elgood's latest he discusses (without illustrating) the Bosnian kurban noz- a decorative-yet-functional butcher's knife used for slitting a sheep's throat for Eid.

A highly speculative suggestion on my part, but I thought it worth a punt.

Nagawarrior · 8th January 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Sorry, only just saw this. In Elgood's latest he discusses (without illustrating) the Bosnian kurban noz- a decorative-yet-functional butcher's knife used for slitting a sheep's throat for Eid.

A highly speculative suggestion on my part, but I thought it worth a punt.

You talking about; The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors in the Ottoman Period by Elgood? A very affordable book. Is it a good one? This piece looks like it might just be used for this function.
Thank you,

Stephen*

Nagawarrior · 1st April 2012, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagawarrior

Just found this sword.
What do you think?
I'm thinking Bosnia.

Was looking at this piece today and just noticed a date on the pommel. You can see it in the pommel close-up there.
looks like 1... I believe thats 1000, So would convert to 1591. What ya all think?
Thanks,
Stephen*

ariel · 2nd April 2012, 02:43 AM

Now, with better details, I can only join the Ottoman/ Balkan voters.

As to 1581.... No way ! That would put it next in line to Met/Topkapi yataghans :-)

Nagawarrior · 2nd April 2012, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Now, with better details, I can only join the Ottoman/ Balkan voters.

As to 1581.... No way ! That would put it next in line to Met/Topkapi yataghans :-)

Perhaps its just a number, not a date. 1000 goats taken. :-) Who knows.

gp · 5th August 2022, 01:15 AM

interesting "discussion"even 11 years ago

I think Balkan and looking at the scabbard and hilt might even be narrowed down to southern parts of the former Yugoslavia
I have got a knife / small bichaq with the same grip / hilt : white bone and same circular decoration.
The decoration on the blade looks most interesting: I only have seen similar on small hunting pen or clasp knives

gp · 6th August 2022, 09:19 PM

enclosed the pictures of the bichaq from Croatia and 2 from Bosnia with similar decoration, so you can compare.
when I look at the grip / hilt of what the owner calls "sword", I would not call it a yataghan, but looks more like the long bichaqs of 40 cm

as for the grip/handle / hilt: the types for the bichaqs were derived from the several types yataghans in the Ottoman empire and found on the Balkans; from Makedonia, Bulgaria, parts of what is now known as Greece ( as the Greek world was way bigger than the present state!) through Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Dalmatia and parts of Croatia...numbers 14 and 18 come close to the above "sword"

I would recommend cleaning the metal of the knife and scabbard either with some colorless olive oil and the leather as well or with some other leather prerserving material ( like for ancient saddle and saddle bags) to stop further deterioration and restore it a little to its former beauty

Interested Party · 7th August 2022, 05:36 PM

GP, I really like that diagram of handle patterns! I am sure you have given this source material before, but which book did it come from? In what language is it written? Does it have profile views of the handles also?

Thanks,
IP

gp · 8th August 2022, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

GP, I really like that diagram of handle patterns! I am sure you have given this source material before, but which book did it come from? In what language is it written? Does it have profile views of the handles also?

Thanks,
IP

yes I did, sadly no profile views. It comes from an Austrian Habsburg K.u.K. book in German "Wissenschaftliche Mittheilungen aus Bosnien und der Hercegovina"

11th December 2010, 09:17 PM	#1
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	New sword, Bosnia? Just found this sword. What do you think? I'm thinking Bosnia. Attached Images

12th December 2010, 06:49 PM	#6
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Here are some more pictures. I hope they help. Thank you for your input. Very much appreciated. Attached Images

12th December 2010, 06:56 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	That curly wire connector where the leather is joined is a style I see on Greek/Balkan/Turkish pieces. As Battara says, the circles are familiar from Afghan items, but now that we can see the other details, I'd say its more to the west. It doesn't look Greek to me, possibly Turkish, but Balkan seems favourite (IMHO). The decoration on the scabbard with the chevron and orb is very distinctive. Must be a giveaway clue for someone to ID it? Last edited by Atlantia; 12th December 2010 at 07:13 PM.

12th December 2010, 10:30 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	The dot in circle decoration from what I have read is supposed to signify heaven, with the little dot in the center symbolizing Allah's central position in the universe. As a result, it is not surprisingly very wide spread and typical of many areas, making attribution based solely on this symbol hard. I am attaching a picture of some Bosnian knives, where you can clearly see similar decoration on the hilt of the second knife from the left. My guess therefore would be Western Balkans. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

5th August 2022, 01:15 AM	#18
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/editor/separator.gif interesting "discussion"even 11 years ago I think Balkan and looking at the scabbard and hilt might even be narrowed down to southern parts of the former Yugoslavia I have got a knife / small bichaq with the same grip / hilt : white bone and same circular decoration. The decoration on the blade looks most interesting: I only have seen similar on small hunting pen or clasp knives Last edited by gp; 5th August 2022 at 01:44 AM.

12th December 2010, 06:21 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Been a while - welcome back! The hilt does not strike me as particularly Bosnian but more Afghanistan or there abouts...........

12th December 2010, 10:22 AM	#3
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Nice to be able to submit a new piece for discussion Jose. Thanks for the welcome back. This item was labled Russian in the little shop I found it at. I kinda had a Ottoman gut feeling from it. The little cirlces on the handle reminded me of the handles of Bosnian Bichaq. The lobed pommel also reminds of pieces from the Balkan area. The seller might have seen a similarity to the Russian Shashqa. I've seen the circles on Afgan pieces as well. At 26" over all with 19" blade, its much larger than the typical Bichaq though. Look forward to futher comment.

12th December 2010, 05:22 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It does look Balkan to me. Can we see the decoration on the scabbard and the stitching on the leather part close-up?

13th December 2010, 08:05 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	That is very helpful TVV. Did not know that about the dot and circle. I have seen these on Balkan arms as well, but not lumped together in this type of configuration except on Afgani/north central Asian pieces. What you said does make sense of the use of some form of dot and circle motif all over the Islamic world.

14th December 2010, 12:50 AM	#10
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Thank you for all your comments. I really appreciate your input. I've searched all over the internet and haven't found another sword exactly like mine. The Bosnian pieces are the closest. Unless other evidence surfaces I'll keep with the Balkan origin.

24th December 2010, 08:18 PM	#11
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	A kurban noz?

2nd April 2012, 02:43 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Now, with better details, I can only join the Ottoman/ Balkan voters. As to 1581.... No way ! That would put it next in line to Met/Topkapi yataghans :-)

6th August 2022, 09:19 PM	#19
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 717	enclosed the pictures of the bichaq from Croatia and 2 from Bosnia with similar decoration, so you can compare. when I look at the grip / hilt of what the owner calls "sword", I would not call it a yataghan, but looks more like the long bichaqs of 40 cm as for the grip/handle / hilt: the types for the bichaqs were derived from the several types yataghans in the Ottoman empire and found on the Balkans; from Makedonia, Bulgaria, parts of what is now known as Greece ( as the Greek world was way bigger than the present state!) through Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Dalmatia and parts of Croatia...numbers 14 and 18 come close to the above "sword" I would recommend cleaning the metal of the knife and scabbard either with some colorless olive oil and the leather as well or with some other leather prerserving material ( like for ancient saddle and saddle bags) to stop further deterioration and restore it a little to its former beauty Attached Images Last edited by gp; 7th August 2022 at 03:52 PM.

7th August 2022, 05:36 PM	#20
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 467	GP, I really like that diagram of handle patterns! I am sure you have given this source material before, but which book did it come from? In what language is it written? Does it have profile views of the handles also? Thanks, IP