Fairnbarn Sykes (commando dagger) re-hilted in Scottish dress ?

katana · 20th June 2008, 11:20 PM

Hi,
ethnographic, in the sense that dagger is hilted, in what I would deem traditional Scottish style. The blade is diamond section, and nicely made, is etched with Jonathan Crookes Sheffield London and a heart and pistol (their trademark)

The profile and dimensions strongly suggest the blade was a Fairbairn Sykes Commando dagger (WW2) as does the crossguard. The maker is know, but I can only find information that they were around at the end of the 19th C until around 1915. The dagger is very nicely balanced and the antler is extremely ergonomic. I do not believe that the hilt was once part of a Carvery set

I know that several formites also collect Millitaria and was hoping they could help date this (via the blade?)

OAL 11" (27.5 cms) Blade 6" (15cms) (standard ww2 issue 6 9/16" 16.5 cms, however apparently it was not uncommon that were shortened by their owners to approx. 6")

All comments, suggestions etc gratefully received.

Regards David

asomotif · 20th June 2008, 11:41 PM

Does the tang go through the whole hilt ?

katana · 21st June 2008, 12:17 AM

Hi Asomotif

,
the tang is not visible at the pommel. The pommel end of the antler is capped with a nickel 'plate'. The distance from the crossguard to the pommel is exactly 5" (127mm)

According to my information the tang on a F/S blade is
4 11/16 " + 3/16" (the 3/16" would have been threaded into the pommel nut) which would make the total length 4 14/16" (124mm)

I can only assume that the tang does indeed run through the entire handle and is (invisibly) threaded to the pommel cap. Will try and get a strong magnet to test this.

Also I forgot to mention....if the makers "Crookes" ceased manufacturing knives in 1915.....this F/S "copy" blade preceeds the FS dagger by nearly 30 years

Unless, during WW2 they were 'enlisted' to produce military blades?

Regards David

Atlantia · 21st June 2008, 02:48 PM

I've seen other 'victorian'/early 20th C daggers that very closely resemble the FS knives (blade/guard wise). I think FS worked with what was quite a popular size of stilletto and just kinda 'made it their own'.
I once had a presentation FS with a faux Ivory handle (turned orange with age) which had a big etched makers name on the blade 'Made by the Famous Sword Smith etc'. That was circa 1945. Apparently it was given to a retiring 'commando' officer.
Is it possible that your makers 'workshop' or company still produced blades carrying his name after his death?
A lot of Scots fought in the trenches and there are a lot of weird trench knives?
Sorry, just random thoughts.
Nice little dagger btw. ;-)

katana · 22nd June 2008, 07:19 PM

Hi Atlantia,
thanks for your input. The dimensions of the blade almost perfectly match this diagram of the F/S blade. I can only assume that the knife maker was called upon to help the war effort and, if this is the case, the knife is probably circa 1940's.

Regards David

.

Ferguson · 22nd June 2008, 11:54 PM

My gut feeling is that this is original, and not altered. There is a similar piece on page 455 of Levines Guide to Knives and their values, 4th edition. The blade shape is different, but it's still a dirk or dagger. It's made by Joseph Allen & Sons, Sheffield.

I read on British Blades forum that the Jonathan Crookes name was bought and was continued to be used.
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...d.php?p=530511

Look at the marking on the blade. If you could determine the technology used that makes that "dot" pattern, it might date the blade. I'm thinking it's not from the original Crookes. Here's an old Crookes advertisment.

The blade doesn't have the "feel" of a Fairbairn-Sykes to me. I think you've got a really nice original factory made piece.
But I'm certainly no expert.

I'm googling as I'm writing this and found an example of a modern Crookes commando knife.
http://www.fightingknives.info/Home/...6/Default.aspx

Steve
Edit: Here's a good pic of the early logo from a completed Ebay auction.

katana · 23rd June 2008, 12:18 AM

Excellent stuff

, Thank you Steve.

The 'logo' seems acid etched... perhaps using a stencil ? You've certainly given me some very useful leads

Kind Regards David

20th June 2008, 11:20 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Fairnbarn Sykes (commando dagger) re-hilted in Scottish dress ? Hi, ethnographic, in the sense that dagger is hilted, in what I would deem traditional Scottish style. The blade is diamond section, and nicely made, is etched with Jonathan Crookes Sheffield London and a heart and pistol (their trademark) The profile and dimensions strongly suggest the blade was a Fairbairn Sykes Commando dagger (WW2) as does the crossguard. The maker is know, but I can only find information that they were around at the end of the 19th C until around 1915. The dagger is very nicely balanced and the antler is extremely ergonomic. I do not believe that the hilt was once part of a Carvery set I know that several formites also collect Millitaria and was hoping they could help date this (via the blade?) OAL 11" (27.5 cms) Blade 6" (15cms) (standard ww2 issue 6 9/16" 16.5 cms, however apparently it was not uncommon that were shortened by their owners to approx. 6") All comments, suggestions etc gratefully received. Regards David Attached Images

22nd June 2008, 07:19 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Atlantia, thanks for your input. The dimensions of the blade almost perfectly match this diagram of the F/S blade. I can only assume that the knife maker was called upon to help the war effort and, if this is the case, the knife is probably circa 1940's. Regards David . Attached Images

22nd June 2008, 11:54 PM	#6
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	My gut feeling is that this is original, and not altered. There is a similar piece on page 455 of Levines Guide to Knives and their values, 4th edition. The blade shape is different, but it's still a dirk or dagger. It's made by Joseph Allen & Sons, Sheffield. I read on British Blades forum that the Jonathan Crookes name was bought and was continued to be used. http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...d.php?p=530511 Look at the marking on the blade. If you could determine the technology used that makes that "dot" pattern, it might date the blade. I'm thinking it's not from the original Crookes. Here's an old Crookes advertisment. The blade doesn't have the "feel" of a Fairbairn-Sykes to me. I think you've got a really nice original factory made piece. But I'm certainly no expert. I'm googling as I'm writing this and found an example of a modern Crookes commando knife. http://www.fightingknives.info/Home/...6/Default.aspx Steve Edit: Here's a good pic of the early logo from a completed Ebay auction. Attached Images Last edited by Ferguson; 23rd June 2008 at 12:04 AM. Reason: Addition

20th June 2008, 11:41 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Does the tang go through the whole hilt ?

21st June 2008, 12:17 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Asomotif , the tang is not visible at the pommel. The pommel end of the antler is capped with a nickel 'plate'. The distance from the crossguard to the pommel is exactly 5" (127mm) According to my information the tang on a F/S blade is 4 11/16 " + 3/16" (the 3/16" would have been threaded into the pommel nut) which would make the total length 4 14/16" (124mm) I can only assume that the tang does indeed run through the entire handle and is (invisibly) threaded to the pommel cap. Will try and get a strong magnet to test this. Also I forgot to mention....if the makers "Crookes" ceased manufacturing knives in 1915.....this F/S "copy" blade preceeds the FS dagger by nearly 30 years Unless, during WW2 they were 'enlisted' to produce military blades? Regards David

21st June 2008, 02:48 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I've seen other 'victorian'/early 20th C daggers that very closely resemble the FS knives (blade/guard wise). I think FS worked with what was quite a popular size of stilletto and just kinda 'made it their own'. I once had a presentation FS with a faux Ivory handle (turned orange with age) which had a big etched makers name on the blade 'Made by the Famous Sword Smith etc'. That was circa 1945. Apparently it was given to a retiring 'commando' officer. Is it possible that your makers 'workshop' or company still produced blades carrying his name after his death? A lot of Scots fought in the trenches and there are a lot of weird trench knives? Sorry, just random thoughts. Nice little dagger btw. ;-)

23rd June 2008, 12:18 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Excellent stuff , Thank you Steve. The 'logo' seems acid etched... perhaps using a stencil ? You've certainly given me some very useful leads Kind Regards David