Rounded points on European Swords

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2008, 04:11 PM

A short while ago, Fernando posted a most interesting Walloon sword, of the time typically associated with the Low Countries on the Continent in the 17th century. While discussing the features of the sword, one of the most notable was the distinctly rounded tip on the blade.

The question is of course, was this something commonly done on blade tips, and why?

It appears that this rounded tip does occur on a number of European sword blades of 17th century and later, particularly in Germany it would seem.

While not directly pertaining to European blades, it is worthy of note that in ethnographic regions that typically received trade blades from Europe, again most notably Germany, the rounded tip does seem prevalent. The two regions and weapons that come to mind are of course the Tuareg takouba of the Sahara, as well as the Omani kattara of Arabia.

fearn · 21st November 2008, 04:58 PM

Hi Jim,

One theory I've read, in another context, is that the rounded tip (if sharp) is good for slashing, as a long tip has a better chance of lodging in the target.

Don't know if it's true or not.

Best,

F

kisak · 21st November 2008, 06:21 PM

A more rounded tip would seem more robust at least for a sword meant mostly for cutting/slashing/chopping. From what I've understood, a sword also needs a bit of width to have room for a proper "cutting cross-section".

On a sword like an Oakeshott type XV that would mean the outermost part isn't very good at cutting. The more rounded tips enables the sword to stay reasonably wide basically all the way up to the tip begins, extending the part of the blade where the sword will cut very well, so it isn't so critical what part of the blade is used to cut.

For loads applied in the edge-to-back direction, the rounded tips should also be sturdier than a more needle-like one I assume. In addition, if the sword is made with the balance and geometry heavily favouring cutting, then adding a tip optimised for cutting would seem to be somewhat pointless, if not outright counter-productive. (Now this of course begs the question of just how these 17th century swords were optimised between cut and thrust.)

That a more spatulate tip is indeed a good thing if intend to be more or less heavily optimised for cutting would seem to be supported (in aprt at least) by the existence of cutting oriented swords with such tips in other places and times. Many viking swords, the Oakeshott type XIII (and subtypes), some swords from the Himalayas, etc.

On the other hand, I guess one might risk a bit of an self fulfilling prophecy here if one (like me) places heavy emphasis on the tip and tapering up to it when trying to determine how much of a cutter or thruster a sword is (this a as result form only knowing about many a sword from pictures and such, no form personally handling them, or data on balance points and such).

kronckew · 21st November 2008, 08:06 PM

this dha has a rounded tip, and is razor sharp all the way around it to the spine. i certainly wouldn't want to get it thrust at me, even to it's obviously designed to cut rather than thrust. slicing that tip across an unarmoured opponent would be quite effective. with the distal taper, the tip section is quite thin and the broadness adds mass as well as an edge that can be slid across the target. it would also cause quite a large and immediately life threatening wound if thrust at something soft, like a throat or abdomen, or between ribs, where a pointy point might bend or break on bone..

this mexican sword/machete from another thread here also has a rounded tip designed for cutting. the rounded tips on these "...was adopted because it permits a long life throught continous re-sharpening, and the balance helps in cutting..."

fearn · 21st November 2008, 08:42 PM

Hi All,

I won't disagree about broad tips being better for cutting. That argument got hashed out years ago, to the point where I don't even want to try recovering the link (it's pre-2004).

However, we've got a number of issues to hash out. One is the question of what I'll call the "machete tip," just to keep Mark Bowditch from blowing a fuse. This is a blade with a blunt, sharp, tip, backed up by a thin blade--the classic situation with a machete. Yes, it can be used to stab, but with the blade so thin, there's a question of whether you can actually penetrate with it. This is something where someone really should try it on what's left of a thanksgiving turkey (or some similar target, such as a ham) to see if the blade penetrates when you stab it.

The bottom line here is the it would be good to know how well these broad tips stab. If they don't stab well, then I'd say they're primarily cutting tips.

Second issue are the swords that (I think) Jim was talking about, that have relatively narrow blades and rounded, sharp tips. These are the tips I'm talking about, and they go back to the Bronze Age (see attached image of an accurate reconstruction of a Mindelheim type C sword). In these blades, I'd say the tip was blunted so that it would be a decent slashing tip, and not get embedded in the target.

Basically, we've got different possibilities for the reasons for blunt tips. I absolutely agree that broad, blunt tips are great for cutting, and I also agree that they're easier to sharpen. I also think that they can be specialized more for slashes, rather than stabs.

F

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2008, 09:44 PM

Outstanding responses guys!!! Thank you soo much. I was thinking also that the slashing potential would be the purpose, and I know that at least in the Omani case, their swordplay consisted of slashing movements.

I always thought it was curious to see long, narrow arming swords for cavalry that I thought were primarily for thrusting with this feature. The walloon sword that Fernando posted, as I mentioned, prompted this question, and I found numerous other instances of these rounded blades.

Fearn, thank you for noting that interesting perspective on the long tip likelihood of lodging in the target, and it is one I had not heard of. That would certainly be a concern for cavalry as their key fundamental is movement.

All best regards,
Jim

Queequeg · 22nd November 2008, 05:58 PM

Jim,

I have a few books on swords which mention "Executioner's Swords", used for beheading criminals. All of them look like longswords with rounded tips. That seems to have been the standard design for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executioner%27s_sword

fernando · 22nd November 2008, 06:18 PM

Within my ignorance and in a broad interpretation, apart from the slashing reasoning already exposed, i would say that the acute point in a blade can only cause hazardous situations, both to the owner and to his neighbours ... as also to itself, as passive of easy damage. Besides, if your foe doesn't have a cuirasse, you still can perforate his body with a rounded blade point, providing you use minimum technique ... right ?
Even there are various degrees of rounded points; this other sword i once posted, a Spanish colonial specimen, also has a rounded tip, like others from the same family, although not so dramaticaly domed, like the Walloon.

Fernando

.

fearn · 22nd November 2008, 06:51 PM

Hi Fernando,

An acute tip is absolutely necessary for a good thrust. Think about the armor-piercing weapons we see, starting with the flyssa and going from there. To pierce a surface, especially an armored surface, you need to have a spike. The harder and tougher the surface is, the more important tip geometry is, and the more important that force is transmitted properly. Otherwise the tip won't penetrate.

There's an informal discussion of this on www.thearma.org, titled There is no best sword.

Jim and all,

I remembered another reason for rounded tips. Since I'm making the pumpkin pies for Thanksgiving this year, today is when I start by chopping the pumpkins up (I cook from scratch, thank you). Just for kicks, I decided to use my nice sirupati kukri (from Himalayan Imports, and not an antique). As I was sharpening it, I remembered the other thing tips are good for.

On a kukri, the major cutting surface, and the only part of the edge that is hardened, is the sweet spot a few inches back from the tip. When chopping, you're never supposed to hit with the kukri tip, and the major use for the tip is to pull the sweet spot through the target.

Now kukri tips are generally sharp (although not hardened), but there's no particular reason for the tip to be sharp. We can argue that some swords have rounded tips because the tip is used to pull the sweet spot through, not to cut or stab. This could be proved defnitively by checking for differential hardening. If part of the edge (the sweet spot) is hardened, but the tip is not, then the smith designed it like a kukri.

Best,

F

21st November 2008, 04:11 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Rounded points on European Swords A short while ago, Fernando posted a most interesting Walloon sword, of the time typically associated with the Low Countries on the Continent in the 17th century. While discussing the features of the sword, one of the most notable was the distinctly rounded tip on the blade. The question is of course, was this something commonly done on blade tips, and why? It appears that this rounded tip does occur on a number of European sword blades of 17th century and later, particularly in Germany it would seem. While not directly pertaining to European blades, it is worthy of note that in ethnographic regions that typically received trade blades from Europe, again most notably Germany, the rounded tip does seem prevalent. The two regions and weapons that come to mind are of course the Tuareg takouba of the Sahara, as well as the Omani kattara of Arabia.

21st November 2008, 08:42 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi All, I won't disagree about broad tips being better for cutting. That argument got hashed out years ago, to the point where I don't even want to try recovering the link (it's pre-2004). However, we've got a number of issues to hash out. One is the question of what I'll call the "machete tip," just to keep Mark Bowditch from blowing a fuse. This is a blade with a blunt, sharp, tip, backed up by a thin blade--the classic situation with a machete. Yes, it can be used to stab, but with the blade so thin, there's a question of whether you can actually penetrate with it. This is something where someone really should try it on what's left of a thanksgiving turkey (or some similar target, such as a ham) to see if the blade penetrates when you stab it. The bottom line here is the it would be good to know how well these broad tips stab. If they don't stab well, then I'd say they're primarily cutting tips. Second issue are the swords that (I think) Jim was talking about, that have relatively narrow blades and rounded, sharp tips. These are the tips I'm talking about, and they go back to the Bronze Age (see attached image of an accurate reconstruction of a Mindelheim type C sword). In these blades, I'd say the tip was blunted so that it would be a decent slashing tip, and not get embedded in the target. Basically, we've got different possibilities for the reasons for blunt tips. I absolutely agree that broad, blunt tips are great for cutting, and I also agree that they're easier to sharpen. I also think that they can be specialized more for slashes, rather than stabs. F Attached Images

22nd November 2008, 06:18 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Within my ignorance and in a broad interpretation, apart from the slashing reasoning already exposed, i would say that the acute point in a blade can only cause hazardous situations, both to the owner and to his neighbours ... as also to itself, as passive of easy damage. Besides, if your foe doesn't have a cuirasse, you still can perforate his body with a rounded blade point, providing you use minimum technique ... right ? Even there are various degrees of rounded points; this other sword i once posted, a Spanish colonial specimen, also has a rounded tip, like others from the same family, although not so dramaticaly domed, like the Walloon. Fernando . Attached Images

21st November 2008, 04:58 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, One theory I've read, in another context, is that the rounded tip (if sharp) is good for slashing, as a long tip has a better chance of lodging in the target. Don't know if it's true or not. Best, F

21st November 2008, 06:21 PM	#3
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	A more rounded tip would seem more robust at least for a sword meant mostly for cutting/slashing/chopping. From what I've understood, a sword also needs a bit of width to have room for a proper "cutting cross-section". On a sword like an Oakeshott type XV that would mean the outermost part isn't very good at cutting. The more rounded tips enables the sword to stay reasonably wide basically all the way up to the tip begins, extending the part of the blade where the sword will cut very well, so it isn't so critical what part of the blade is used to cut. For loads applied in the edge-to-back direction, the rounded tips should also be sturdier than a more needle-like one I assume. In addition, if the sword is made with the balance and geometry heavily favouring cutting, then adding a tip optimised for cutting would seem to be somewhat pointless, if not outright counter-productive. (Now this of course begs the question of just how these 17th century swords were optimised between cut and thrust.) That a more spatulate tip is indeed a good thing if intend to be more or less heavily optimised for cutting would seem to be supported (in aprt at least) by the existence of cutting oriented swords with such tips in other places and times. Many viking swords, the Oakeshott type XIII (and subtypes), some swords from the Himalayas, etc. On the other hand, I guess one might risk a bit of an self fulfilling prophecy here if one (like me) places heavy emphasis on the tip and tapering up to it when trying to determine how much of a cutter or thruster a sword is (this a as result form only knowing about many a sword from pictures and such, no form personally handling them, or data on balance points and such).

21st November 2008, 08:06 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,182	this dha has a rounded tip, and is razor sharp all the way around it to the spine. i certainly wouldn't want to get it thrust at me, even to it's obviously designed to cut rather than thrust. slicing that tip across an unarmoured opponent would be quite effective. with the distal taper, the tip section is quite thin and the broadness adds mass as well as an edge that can be slid across the target. it would also cause quite a large and immediately life threatening wound if thrust at something soft, like a throat or abdomen, or between ribs, where a pointy point might bend or break on bone.. this mexican sword/machete from another thread here also has a rounded tip designed for cutting. the rounded tips on these "...was adopted because it permits a long life throught continous re-sharpening, and the balance helps in cutting..."

21st November 2008, 09:44 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Outstanding responses guys!!! Thank you soo much. I was thinking also that the slashing potential would be the purpose, and I know that at least in the Omani case, their swordplay consisted of slashing movements. I always thought it was curious to see long, narrow arming swords for cavalry that I thought were primarily for thrusting with this feature. The walloon sword that Fernando posted, as I mentioned, prompted this question, and I found numerous other instances of these rounded blades. Fearn, thank you for noting that interesting perspective on the long tip likelihood of lodging in the target, and it is one I had not heard of. That would certainly be a concern for cavalry as their key fundamental is movement. All best regards, Jim

22nd November 2008, 05:58 PM	#7
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Jim, I have a few books on swords which mention "Executioner's Swords", used for beheading criminals. All of them look like longswords with rounded tips. That seems to have been the standard design for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executioner%27s_sword

22nd November 2008, 06:51 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Fernando, An acute tip is absolutely necessary for a good thrust. Think about the armor-piercing weapons we see, starting with the flyssa and going from there. To pierce a surface, especially an armored surface, you need to have a spike. The harder and tougher the surface is, the more important tip geometry is, and the more important that force is transmitted properly. Otherwise the tip won't penetrate. There's an informal discussion of this on www.thearma.org, titled There is no best sword. Jim and all, I remembered another reason for rounded tips. Since I'm making the pumpkin pies for Thanksgiving this year, today is when I start by chopping the pumpkins up (I cook from scratch, thank you). Just for kicks, I decided to use my nice sirupati kukri (from Himalayan Imports, and not an antique). As I was sharpening it, I remembered the other thing tips are good for. On a kukri, the major cutting surface, and the only part of the edge that is hardened, is the sweet spot a few inches back from the tip. When chopping, you're never supposed to hit with the kukri tip, and the major use for the tip is to pull the sweet spot through the target. Now kukri tips are generally sharp (although not hardened), but there's no particular reason for the tip to be sharp. We can argue that some swords have rounded tips because the tip is used to pull the sweet spot through, not to cut or stab. This could be proved defnitively by checking for differential hardening. If part of the edge (the sweet spot) is hardened, but the tip is not, then the smith designed it like a kukri. Best, F