That Indian Jambiya, restored: For comments

Atlantia · 5th July 2009, 05:44 PM

Well, I know it didn't exactly set the boards afire when I initially showed you all it! My sincere thanks to Battara, Steve and especially Stuart, who talked me into waiting to find a nice piece of velvet for the recovering of the scabbard.
The Velvet is pre WW2, so its proper velvet. Looks a treat in person. I decided to shift from the original green, as although it probobly looked good when the mounts were still showing complete silvering, it didn't look to hot with the now mostly brass colour. Havent etched the blade, doubt its worth the effort.
Anyway, here it is! Hope you all approve, it took many hours with toothpicks to clean all the brasso residue out of the engraving.
Regards
Gene

CharlesS · 5th July 2009, 06:42 PM

A very nice example of this type. These are usually lovely, and rather exotic looking, but, like you noted there never seems to be much interest in or a market for them.

You have done a very nice job with the velvet. Was the the original ribbon covering the seam? If not it could surely pass for authentic.

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2009, 07:40 PM

That truly is surprising to hear that there is limited market for these......this is breathtaking Gene!!! Nicely done......and good teamwork you guys on the patience waiting for just the right velvet instead of a trip to the fabric store. Incredible what a difference it makes.
Its most heartening to see proud old weapons brought back to life.
Again, well done Gene.

All the best,
Jim

Battara · 5th July 2009, 08:41 PM

Very nice......

Atlantia · 5th July 2009, 10:31 PM

Gentlemen, thank you

Interestingly, as I removed the horrible remains of the original covering, I noticed that there was an extra layer of velvet in a strip around the middle corresponding to the area between the mounts to 'pad' that area and raise the level slightly. I replaced this too.

Charles:
The ribbon (didn't know they were called that!) is the original. Its made from tiny thin strips of silvered copper. Some are flat, others are wrapped around cotton threads to make little silver 'ropes'. As with the the mounts most of the silvering is gone, but I wanted to keep as much of the original scabbard as I could.

Jim,
Thanks mate. You're generous as always

Its a funny little knife, but everything about it just 'fits'. It feels great in the hand, the balance is right where the handle joins the blade. The grip is smooth but comfortable, not slippery. I am very interested in the styling of the 'Thum' which is a big ole pineapple atop what looks like a carved version of a 'turks head knot' (don't know how else to describe it?)

Battara,
Thanks bud

I'm pleased with how its turned out.

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 5th July 2009, 11:27 PM

Before............................................ ..................and............................. .............................................After

Steve · 6th July 2009, 04:15 AM

Gene,
I think you've done an excellent job. You can have a go at some of mine anytime. I note you mentioned previously about the nice finish at the end of the chape. It's not a thum (garlic) as with some arabic scabbards but, I think, a bud in keeping witht the indian floral decorations.
Good one.
Regards,
Steve

kahnjar1 · 6th July 2009, 06:53 AM

A superb job Gene. I'm most impressed!! As to no market for it, I personally have my doubts!

Regards Stuart

Jens Nordlunde · 6th July 2009, 05:08 PM

Gene,

Like the others write – you have done a great job – congratulations. I could need someone with your skills closer to where I live.

I agree with Stuart, that there is a marked for these daggers, but one problem is, that many collectors of Indian arms, does not recognise these daggers as being Indian, or they collect other types of Indian weapons.

Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 6th July 2009, 10:32 PM

Your dagger is no doubt from Kutch. If you look at the catalogue from The Colonial and Indian Exhibition, 1886 you can find similar decorations. Also have a look at the attached scabbard.
Jens

Atlantia · 7th July 2009, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Gene,
I think you've done an excellent job. You can have a go at some of mine anytime. I note you mentioned previously about the nice finish at the end of the chape. It's not a thum (garlic) as with some arabic scabbards but, I think, a bud in keeping witht the indian floral decorations.
Good one.
Regards,
Steve

Thanks again mate, I'll try and get a good close-up of the chape end and post it

Atlantia · 7th July 2009, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

A superb job Gene. I'm most impressed!! As to no market for it, I personally have my doubts!

Regards Stuart

Cheers Stuart, do you aprove of the colour?

Atlantia · 7th July 2009, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Your dagger is no doubt from Kutch. If you look at the catalogue from The Colonial and Indian Exhibition, 1886 you can find similar decorations. Also have a look at the attached scabbard.
Jens

Wow thanks Jens! The Bhuj scabbard is very interesting!
I wonder why an Indian dagger is so Arabic in style?
Many thanks for your input on this

Regards
gene

kahnjar1 · 7th July 2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Cheers Stuart, do you aprove of the colour?

Absolutely!! It looks great!!

Jens Nordlunde · 7th July 2009, 10:00 AM

Gene,

Don’t forget; there has been an intensive trade from the Arabian Peninsula to India, and from India to Java, Borneo, Sumatra, Malaya, Vietnam and other places, like China. This was done by ship and caravan, and from the first centuries if not before. With the trade came the settlers, and with them their influence, when it comes to weapon, art and other things.

Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 7th July 2009, 04:37 PM

I have been corrected, as there was no catalogue, which I said there was, it is a book with the items mentioned, and in BL the Oriental Reading Rooms are the pictures referred to in the text - sorry

.
However, in Elgood's book The Arms and Armour of Arabia, p 86, illustrations #9.31 and 9.33, he shows two such daggers. One is referred to come from Western India and the other is said to be from Bhuj, which is as close as you can get to Kutch

.
In the text on the same page the author writes, "The very best janabi and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made and were simply referred to as 'Haidarabad'".

Atlantia · 7th July 2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Gene,

Don’t forget; there has been an intensive trade from the Arabian Peninsula to India, and from India to Java, Borneo, Sumatra, Malaya, Vietnam and other places, like China. This was done by ship and caravan, and from the first centuries if not before. With the trade came the settlers, and with them their influence, when it comes to weapon, art and other things.

Jens

HI Jens,

Of course you are completely right about the cross trade and influence, and I'm sure we've all pondered (and in fact in many cases discussed here) the origins of weapons, their influences and tried to understand the nature of their evolution.
But in this case what has 'struck' me, is that daggers of this shape are usually (in my very limited experience of Arab daggers) quite 'regimented' in their design, following seemingly 'set' rules of design and decoration.
I always assumed that those rules were in part to do with a strict interpretaion of Islamic guidlines on the realistic depiction of living things.
Clearly many strict muslim artists do create designs which follow a foliate or floral theme, but its not usual for the those designs to be 'actual flora' but rather geometric interpretations of their metaphysical inner nature.
So I found myself wondering if this dagger would appeal to Arabic buyers over a more traditional and acceptable alternative.
Which in turn led me to wonder if it was made to cater to a 'home grown' Indian market.
I Don't have Elgood

Any chance of a clipped picture?
Many Thanks
Gene

Atlantia · 7th July 2009, 09:13 PM

Steve,
Here are those close-ups.
Thanks again
gene

kahnjar1 · 8th July 2009, 07:27 AM

Hi Gene,
Re Elgood, I will scan the chapter on daggers and email to you at weekend.
Regards Stu

Atlantia · 8th July 2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Gene,
Re Elgood, I will scan the chapter on daggers and email to you at weekend.
Regards Stu

Thats superb! Thanks mate.

ward · 8th July 2009, 08:29 PM

I would suggest buying Elgood's books. They are well written and one of the better reference books out there. Spending money on reference books always pays for itself.

kahnjar1 · 8th July 2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I would suggest buying Elgood's books. They are well written and one of the better reference books out there. Spending money on reference books always pays for itself.

I totally agree. A little money spent on reference, is well spent.
Regards Stuart

Jens Nordlunde · 8th July 2009, 10:41 PM

Ward,
I fully agree with you,
Would you mind giving the forum members you book list, so they knew what to look for?
I have given mine to several members, so I would not mind giving mine - although it is expanding all the time. Just to day I bought an interesting one, but I don't have it yet, so I don't have any thoughts about it.
Jens

ward · 8th July 2009, 11:19 PM

Sure these are good foundation books after that any good museum books, auction catalogs, related books such as on Arab silver etc. I have a pretty large library I would have to sit down for a few hours to list them all,but below are in english and easy to find and most are in the 20-100 usd range. This should give a beginning collector a good start without breaking the bank.

1st A glossary of arms and armor by Stone
2nd oriental armour russel robinson
3rd indian sword Rawson
4th Indian and oriental arms and armor Lord Elgood
5th elgoods books firearms of islamic world,hindu arms and ritual,armor of arabia, etc
6th Islamic swords and swordsmiths by unsal yucel
7th African arms and armor Christoper Spring

Atlantia · 9th July 2009, 01:03 AM

Thanks for the library ideas guys, but I have a ton of literature and I don't have room for what I've already got!

Too diverse tastes I guess.
If I spot them cheapo then I'd pick them up, and donate some more generics too charity, but cant be buying specifics any more.
Anyhoo, heres a rather similar Bhuj scabard. (late 18th-early 19th)

ward · 9th July 2009, 01:54 AM

ok I guess we have different ideas what is important. I prefer to do my own research,but I come originally from a archeaology background. Inshallah.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th July 2009, 11:33 AM

Ward,
I have started another thread on books. Btw your book #4 seems to have a wrong author, it should have been Egerton

.

Atlantia,
From where do you have the picture of the bhuj, and can you show the whole one? Is there a picture of the concealed knife?

Jens

Atlantia · 9th July 2009, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ward,
I have started another thread on books. Btw your book #4 seems to have a wrong author, it should have been Egerton

.

Atlantia,
From where do you have the picture of the bhuj, and can you show the whole one? Is there a picture of the concealed knife?

Jens

Hi Jens,
Sorry its just a postage stamp sized picture and doesn't show any more. Its in 'Swords and Hilt Weapons'.
Interesting similarities though?

Regards
Gene

Jens Nordlunde · 9th July 2009, 01:56 PM

Hi Gene,
Its an interesting bhuj. Have a look at the attached, the mounts are copper with traces of silver. The bhuj you show is likely to be from Sind/Kutch, but the bhuj belonging to the green scabbard is not from any of these places, maybe it is from Gujarat, I am not sure.
Jens

Atlantia · 9th July 2009, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Gene,
Its an interesting bhuj. Have a look at the attached, the mounts are copper with traces of silver. The bhuj you show is likely to be from Sind/Kutch, but the bhuj belonging to the green scabbard is not from any of these places, maybe it is from Gujarat, I am not sure.
Jens

Hi Jens

Thats very similar to mine, silvered copper alloy. Very nice!
How do you so accurately assign location to such similar pieces? I'm rather impressed!

Regards
Gene

5th July 2009, 05:44 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	That Indian Jambiya, restored: For comments Well, I know it didn't exactly set the boards afire when I initially showed you all it! My sincere thanks to Battara, Steve and especially Stuart, who talked me into waiting to find a nice piece of velvet for the recovering of the scabbard. The Velvet is pre WW2, so its proper velvet. Looks a treat in person. I decided to shift from the original green, as although it probobly looked good when the mounts were still showing complete silvering, it didn't look to hot with the now mostly brass colour. Havent etched the blade, doubt its worth the effort. Anyway, here it is! Hope you all approve, it took many hours with toothpicks to clean all the brasso residue out of the engraving. Regards Gene

6th July 2009, 10:32 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Your dagger is no doubt from Kutch. If you look at the catalogue from The Colonial and Indian Exhibition, 1886 you can find similar decorations. Also have a look at the attached scabbard. Jens Attached Images

7th July 2009, 04:37 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I have been corrected, as there was no catalogue, which I said there was, it is a book with the items mentioned, and in BL the Oriental Reading Rooms are the pictures referred to in the text - sorry. However, in Elgood's book The Arms and Armour of Arabia, p 86, illustrations #9.31 and 9.33, he shows two such daggers. One is referred to come from Western India and the other is said to be from Bhuj, which is as close as you can get to Kutch. In the text on the same page the author writes, "The very best janabi and nimsha blades were imported into the Hadhramaut from Hyderabad where they were made and were simply referred to as 'Haidarabad'".

9th July 2009, 11:33 AM	#27
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ward, I have started another thread on books. Btw your book #4 seems to have a wrong author, it should have been Egerton. Atlantia, From where do you have the picture of the bhuj, and can you show the whole one? Is there a picture of the concealed knife? Jens

9th July 2009, 01:56 PM	#29
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Gene, Its an interesting bhuj. Have a look at the attached, the mounts are copper with traces of silver. The bhuj you show is likely to be from Sind/Kutch, but the bhuj belonging to the green scabbard is not from any of these places, maybe it is from Gujarat, I am not sure. Jens Attached Images

5th July 2009, 06:42 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A very nice example of this type. These are usually lovely, and rather exotic looking, but, like you noted there never seems to be much interest in or a market for them. You have done a very nice job with the velvet. Was the the original ribbon covering the seam? If not it could surely pass for authentic.

5th July 2009, 07:40 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That truly is surprising to hear that there is limited market for these......this is breathtaking Gene!!! Nicely done......and good teamwork you guys on the patience waiting for just the right velvet instead of a trip to the fabric store. Incredible what a difference it makes. Its most heartening to see proud old weapons brought back to life. Again, well done Gene. All the best, Jim

5th July 2009, 08:41 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Very nice......

5th July 2009, 10:31 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Gentlemen, thank you Interestingly, as I removed the horrible remains of the original covering, I noticed that there was an extra layer of velvet in a strip around the middle corresponding to the area between the mounts to 'pad' that area and raise the level slightly. I replaced this too. Charles: The ribbon (didn't know they were called that!) is the original. Its made from tiny thin strips of silvered copper. Some are flat, others are wrapped around cotton threads to make little silver 'ropes'. As with the the mounts most of the silvering is gone, but I wanted to keep as much of the original scabbard as I could. Jim, Thanks mate. You're generous as always Its a funny little knife, but everything about it just 'fits'. It feels great in the hand, the balance is right where the handle joins the blade. The grip is smooth but comfortable, not slippery. I am very interested in the styling of the 'Thum' which is a big ole pineapple atop what looks like a carved version of a 'turks head knot' (don't know how else to describe it?) Battara, Thanks bud I'm pleased with how its turned out. Regards Gene

5th July 2009, 11:27 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Before............................................ ..................and............................. .............................................After

6th July 2009, 04:15 AM	#7
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Gene, I think you've done an excellent job. You can have a go at some of mine anytime. I note you mentioned previously about the nice finish at the end of the chape. It's not a thum (garlic) as with some arabic scabbards but, I think, a bud in keeping witht the indian floral decorations. Good one. Regards, Steve

6th July 2009, 06:53 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	A superb job Gene. I'm most impressed!! As to no market for it, I personally have my doubts! Regards Stuart

6th July 2009, 05:08 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, Like the others write – you have done a great job – congratulations. I could need someone with your skills closer to where I live. I agree with Stuart, that there is a marked for these daggers, but one problem is, that many collectors of Indian arms, does not recognise these daggers as being Indian, or they collect other types of Indian weapons. Jens

7th July 2009, 10:00 AM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, Don’t forget; there has been an intensive trade from the Arabian Peninsula to India, and from India to Java, Borneo, Sumatra, Malaya, Vietnam and other places, like China. This was done by ship and caravan, and from the first centuries if not before. With the trade came the settlers, and with them their influence, when it comes to weapon, art and other things. Jens

7th July 2009, 09:13 PM	#18
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Steve, Here are those close-ups. Thanks again gene

8th July 2009, 07:27 AM	#19
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Gene, Re Elgood, I will scan the chapter on daggers and email to you at weekend. Regards Stu

8th July 2009, 08:29 PM	#21
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I would suggest buying Elgood's books. They are well written and one of the better reference books out there. Spending money on reference books always pays for itself.

8th July 2009, 10:41 PM	#23
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ward, I fully agree with you, Would you mind giving the forum members you book list, so they knew what to look for? I have given mine to several members, so I would not mind giving mine - although it is expanding all the time. Just to day I bought an interesting one, but I don't have it yet, so I don't have any thoughts about it. Jens

8th July 2009, 11:19 PM	#24
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Sure these are good foundation books after that any good museum books, auction catalogs, related books such as on Arab silver etc. I have a pretty large library I would have to sit down for a few hours to list them all,but below are in english and easy to find and most are in the 20-100 usd range. This should give a beginning collector a good start without breaking the bank. 1st A glossary of arms and armor by Stone 2nd oriental armour russel robinson 3rd indian sword Rawson 4th Indian and oriental arms and armor Lord Elgood 5th elgoods books firearms of islamic world,hindu arms and ritual,armor of arabia, etc 6th Islamic swords and swordsmiths by unsal yucel 7th African arms and armor Christoper Spring

9th July 2009, 01:03 AM	#25
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thanks for the library ideas guys, but I have a ton of literature and I don't have room for what I've already got! Too diverse tastes I guess. If I spot them cheapo then I'd pick them up, and donate some more generics too charity, but cant be buying specifics any more. Anyhoo, heres a rather similar Bhuj scabard. (late 18th-early 19th)

9th July 2009, 01:54 AM	#26
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	ok I guess we have different ideas what is important. I prefer to do my own research,but I come originally from a archeaology background. Inshallah.