Antique Jade Sword

[cmario88]

Greetings Everyone! I’ve come to this forum hoping that someone can shed additional light on this sword I have. I’ve taken it to an appraiser and have posted on one other forum that specializes on Asian Antiques. I’d like to hold off on opinions I have gathered so far but will tell you the jade pieces real. I’ve also included a photo of a “Certificate of Authenticity” but have found that opinions vary on acceptance of such documents. Look forward to everyone’s thoughts and thank you in advance.

[kronckew]

who cleaned it? no wear, no patina? where has it been if it's over 100yrs old? picture of it outside the scabbard & of blade please. i personally am a bit sceptical of real 'antiques' from china as their export is illegal.

[Iain]

I'd be interested to see the blade. It's not impossible that genuine antiques do come out of China. I had a number of years ago a very rusty composite jian with similar certificate. As I didn't have the time to restore it I passed it along to another collector who had it assessed by two experts and it turned out to be possibly not even Chinese but likely 17th century.

So strange things can happen. Unfortunately with this one I'm somewhat doubtful, it looks very clean.

[ALEX]

Welcome to the Forum, Cmario88.
I resonate the above concerns. There are no visible signs of wear and tear, which is usually associated with old swords, even if they were ceremonial like yours. Posting the close-up of the blade will help. In addition, that appraisal is very vague. It states that the jade, corals, stones and silver are old, which is totally meaningless, as it refers to raw material:-) The work, however, is in question, it looks too fresh. Also, do you know that the date of this paper is authentic, i.e. 1976? When it comes to Chinese "Certificate of Antiquity" - even the paper can be new:-)

[Gavin Nugent]

Welcome cmario88.

I to agree to this not being older than 1970.
My opinion looking at the images is that it is copper formed that is plated in low quality gold and silver, look close to the suspension fittings and it shows to my eye the gold incorrectly going over the silver...almost like it was dipped.

My 2 cents.

Gavin

[Nathaniel]

Hmmm.....One of the Chinese language sword forums I know of has a section devoted towards "newer" Chinese antiquities....

[cmario88]

Thank you for the quick response and warm welcome everyone. Please, I would like to know if I am replying correctly. Do I "Reply to Thread" or reply with "Quote"?

Kronchkew: The sword has never been cleaned since it's been in my possession, I also know the original buyer and they also said they never cleaned it. Sword has been stored wrapped in cloth and in dry, dark storage. Concerning the blade, give me a little time and I will take photos of it. Can’t really comment on export rules because I really don’t know but I can say the sword was bought when Hong Kong was under British rule, how it got into the dealers hands is anyone’s guess.

Ispn: I’ll be taking photos of the blade shortly. No restoration work has been done.

Alex: I know the original buyer and the date is definitely from that time.

Freebooter: I will look closer at the suspension fittings and see if they have been dipped and also take close up photos for your viewing.

Nathaniel: I don’t know if it is allowed on this forum but would like to know more about this “Chinese language sword forum” do you have a link or address I can follow?

Again thank you for the response so far and will get back with more photos shortly. I will also give you what I’ve been told by another forum and appraiser next time.

[yuanzhumin]

The certificate is exactly saying what it is :
‘This sword is … from the xxxx dynasty and dating from xxxx’’
There is no dynasty and no datation mentioned.
Only it is said it is older than 100 years old. But here is the trick, and the certificate is exactly explaining what it means :
“ the jade coral and turquoise are over 100 years older ‘’
Nobody will dare doubt that stones are older than 100 years old. Perfectly true.
Well, authentic certificate. The thing is what to understand when reading it.
Yes, this is an authentic ‘antique’ sword, ‘antique’ to be understood as ‘old”. This sword was certainly old when it was sold (may be few years or few months old in the 1970s). It is now even older, a quarter of century after ! There is no patina, no sign of use and the artwork is quite crude, but I can now certify that this sword is from the last century !

[asomotif]

Still, a picture of the blade would be interesting to see

[cmario88]

Here are the photos of blade and suspensions as requested. I'm no pro but blade looks pretty bad, any tips on caring or restoring would appreciated.

[Tim Simmons]

What ever that is on the blade you really should clean it off with some steel wool and oil. Where it is very dark one would expect to see considerable pitting. Then we need to see it again.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

What ever that is on the blade you really should clean it off with some steel wool and oil. Where it is very dark one would expect to see considerable pitting. Then we need to see it again.

LOL, should just mention that its best to use the really fine steel wool if you are going to
That '00' painters grade stuff.
Not brillo pads

I do think its a very attractive sword BTW Mario.
And welcome to the forums of course

[cmario88]

Until I find out more about this sword cleaning is out of the question, especially by me. Tim Simmons the dark areas are rather deeply pitted IMO anyway. Atlanta, Thank you, someone went to a lot of trouble to make this and I agree it is beautiful. The materials used such as the jade pieces are authentic, for example the jade on the handle has been describe by 2 experts as coming from ancient Neolithic times possibly the Shang Dynasty (1766-1122 B.C.), the Dragon center piece is white Hetian Jade which to my understanding has become exceeding rare because of its depletion. I was also told because of the turquoise and coral pieces its most probable place of origin or manufacturing would be in Tibet, since it is not commonly used in China. As you can see I am still doing research and hope in time will get a better understanding of what I have. Looking forward to more input and truly appreciate the replies so far. I’m really searching for answers and whether they are bad or good I’m learning much about history, jade, swords, etc. Bottom line I’m having a lot of fun, which is after all why we are all here. If more pictures are needed let me know. Again Thanks

[Bryan.H]

What's with the stain/ discolouration on the blade? This looks chemically treated somehow to me. With so many 'antique' swords being made in Guandong on a daily basis and sold to unsuspecting round-eyes, it's difficult not to be sceptical about edged weapons coming out of China.

[Philip]

Gentlemen,
Nothing about this piece really "adds up". First off, this "Certificate of Authenticity" is issued by a merchant's association in Hong Kong. Not by a legitimate and accredited museum, or the Ministry of Culture but by a ... (ahem!) group of guys who are in the business of selling antiques, tshatshkes, curios, and the like to whomever would buy them. In the Shoppers' Paradise of the Orient, no less. Yuanzhumin has hit it on the head in his post: this document is a pot that won't hold water.

The shape of the blade has no relation to any jian which I have seen from the Han Dynasty onward. The notable reduction in width as it approaches the rather acute tip is a contour that is taken from the classic bronze swords of the Zhou Dynasty's Warring States Period. Yet this blade is made of iron or steel, and has a simple lozenge cross-section (as is the case of jian made during the medieval and late imperial periods), without the complex bevels, sunken panels, and ridgelines in relief that are characteristic of the bronze blades of classical antiquity. The fellow who conceived this blade tried to cover the span of history in one blade and as Genghis Cohen might have said, "me ken nisht zitsn af tsvey shtuln mit eyn tokhes".

The fittings are likewise a stylistic mishmosh. There are these gilt bands with archaistic elements in relief, as seen on Shang and Zhou bronzes. The chape is patterned after those on jian scabbards from the Zhou and Han periods. Next to the gilded elements is silverwork with motifs similar to those seen on Tibetan objects (such as knife-sheaths, tinder-pouches, bowls, pitchers, etc.), with the characteristic turquoises and corals.

I first saw these in Hong Kong in the 1970s, shopkeepers all said at that time that these were "Mongolian knives and swords". One problem -- in all of the period photos I've seen depicting Mongolia and its people, not one of these swords shows up. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art has a single-edged example which is captioned as "Tibetan" in the display cabinet. Again, an exhaustive hunt for documentary ethnographic photos, or provenanced examples in museums, has turned up zilch. And interestingly, nothing remotely similar was included in the definitive exhibition "Warriors of the Himalayas" mounted by the Metropolitan Mus. of Art in 2006 using material from collections in several countries.

These are curio items, composites made of associated materials : antique jades and other hardstones of varying age, blades which were either freshly made (usually quite crudely) or recycled from broken antique Chinese and Japanese swords, and silver parts crafted for the purpose. It's believed that most of these came from Beijing. Silversmiths there were familiar with Tibetan styles of silverwork because a fair amount of the metalwork used by Tibetans was in fact made in China for the export trade.

Some of these sword-like objects are "fairly old" because I've seen a few which have a provenance of sorts -- estate pieces traceable to military or diplomatic service (usually as gifts to US personnel in China before or during WW II). One piece of this sort I remember seeing at a gun show was a jian that had virtually no patina to speak of (having been well-stored in a gun case for years) and fake Qianlong reign marks on the blade that were something of a bad joke. I also saw brand-new ones for sale at the Beijing "Friendship Stores" in 1979 and '81, and similar albeit poorer-quality ones offered for sale in Shanhaiguan in 1998.

[cmario88]

Philip, Thank you on your reply to my "curio" and I say that with a smile. I'm waiting for responses from a few other sources and would like to wait before commenting on your assessment. Again thank you.

[Nathaniel]

Mario,

Philip would be the one of the top authorities on Chinese swords (Google it)...notice the rest of us can tell you it's a fake...but Philip can give you the details....several members on the forum have been collecting for a long time...and have seen what has come around.

The more recent fakes coming out of China are getting better and better at first glance...but still have such a crazy mix motifs send red flags....like Philip said...things just don't add up.

And also to answer your one question regarding the specific forum:

Note the file at the top:

刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums » 假冒伪劣 Fake Sword Forum

http://hfsword.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=8

[Nathaniel]

Also sadly the Sword Forum International --> Antique Arms & Armour Community -->Chinese, SEA (CSEA)

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=146

This section seems to be prime spot where people ask such questions regarding their recent acquisitions...

[Rick]

Yes, Philip Tom is the real deal .
Trust his remarks about your sword .
They are spot on .

[cmario88]

Hi Nathaniel,

I have no doubt Philip is the authority and as mentioned I am grateful for his response and he has my respect, but that does not mean that I’m going to stop there. I’m also in agreement that it appears the sword has no historical value, but I must cover all avenues in the hopes that by chance it may have another story to tell other then greed, slim I know but crazier things have happened in the world and I think it’s worth a try. Don’t you?
One of the reasons I was waiting to respond back to Philip concerns the infamous “Hong Kong Art Craft Merchants Association” “Certificate Of Antiquity” I’m waiting for response concerning that document. I think it would be fun to see what comes of my request, but truthfully think I’m going to run into a dead end knowing the Chinese reputation on giving out info. Anyway Nathaniel I truly appreciate your help and will post when I have something interesting.

Thanks everyone!!!

[Bill M]

Mario,

I understand how this must feel. My first Chinese sword was an "Imperial Emperor General Jian," from eBay. Whew! It was a learning experience! Ouch! That was a few years ago and while I have found a few bargains online, the best have come from reputable dealers and other collectors.

So, how do you know the "reputable" people? Hang around here and ask a few questions. Make friends, read books, visit museums. This is not an exact science and you will make some mistakes, but as you study, network and learn, the mistakes will get fewer.

With the kind assistance of several of the forum members here, I acquired some authentic and beautiful pieces. Collecting is a fascinating and worthwhile endeavor.

You can absolutely trust Phillip Tom's comments. He is one of the very top experts in the world in Chinese arms. You do not need to look further. He is trying to help you understand.

There are others here who are also experts in their fields.

I am sure that I speak for many of the people on this Forum when I say, "Welcome." Hope that we see you again.

Bill

[cmario88]

Hi Rick, I was hoping this site would be the place I'd find some answers and it hasn't disappointed. Everyone has been Great and yes it -Stings- a little learning about my sword but I still enjoy and appreciate it.

Regards

[Rick]

You're very welcome cmario88 .

Maybe you'll become an enthusiast ...aka Addict .

[cmario88]

Bill, Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words. Sometimes you need a thick skin when dealing with forums, some people take things way too personal and view what you say as an attack on them. Fortunately it hasn’t happen here. I think I’ll be sticking around for a while. Got a lot to learn!

Mario

[Philip]

Mario, and all the gang...
If you want to see some Chinese arms from the former imperial court collection, at last we have an all-color book that's strictly devoted to the subject (not the usual art book with maybe one armor and two swords amidst a whole slew of paintings and armchairs):
ARMAMENTS AND MILITARY PROVISIONS: THE COMPLETE COLLECTION OF TREASURES OF THE PALACE MUSEUM VOL. 56, Hong Kong: Commercial Press 2008. Hardbound, lg format, 262 pp, with material grouped into themes: military parades, hunting, horsey stuff, armor, swords and sabers, archery, firearms and light artillery. A lot of the pieces were products of the Forbidden City's workshops or of artisans commissioned by the court. Even more interesting historically are foreign weapons captured in war, presented as tribute gifts, and purchased for military trials and issue during the late 19th cent. modernization drive.

Text in Chinese but picture captions have English with dimensions. Photography is excellent, except they goofed on some pics of the hunting guns so you end up with the impression that most of the Qing emperors were southpaw shooters like yours truly! Just remember that on a matchlock, the serpentine and priming pan are on the RIGHT side of the barrel and you be fine.

You might check Paragon Books in Chicago or Han-Shan Tang in the UK, they may have still have it in stock since it's a fairly new publication.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by cmario88

Hi Rick, I was hoping this site would be the place I'd find some answers and it hasn't disappointed. Everyone has been Great and yes it -Stings- a little learning about my sword but I still enjoy and appreciate it.

Regards

Mario

Even though your sword is a marriage of ancient, old and new parts etc, it's still a beautiful thing.
Definately oil the blade. Rub some WD40 or something into the rust to make sure it doesn't progress.
Enjoy it as a beautiful object.... then go and find it some friends
Many collectors here have items in their collections that are not completely original, many have reproduction items. And you're not the first here to find out that an item isn't entirely 'kosher' after owning it for a while
Hope to see some more of your finds soon.
Gene

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by cmario88

Hi Nathaniel,

I have no doubt Philip is the authority and as mentioned I am grateful for his response and he has my respect, but that does not mean that I’m going to stop there. I’m also in agreement that it appears the sword has no historical value, but I must cover all avenues in the hopes that by chance it may have another story to tell other then greed, slim I know but crazier things have happened in the world and I think it’s worth a try. Don’t you?
One of the reasons I was waiting to respond back to Philip concerns the infamous “Hong Kong Art Craft Merchants Association” “Certificate Of Antiquity” I’m waiting for response concerning that document. I think it would be fun to see what comes of my request, but truthfully think I’m going to run into a dead end knowing the Chinese reputation on giving out info. Anyway Nathaniel I truly appreciate your help and will post when I have something interesting.

Thanks everyone!!!

Mario,

Great stuff your investigation. I know I have lots to learn and have learned a lot here with the great bunch of guys here. I'm sure there is stuff too I have incorrect. As Bill said, many of use experienced something similar at one point in our collecting. And I forgot to say, Welcome

And yes, do check out the book Philip is talking about. It's a nice hardcover with good photos.

[ariel]

Any info on how to order this book?

[Nathaniel]

http://www.paragonbook.com/html/brow...cfm?item=35603

http://hanshanhost.demonweb.co.uk/g/GGMC56.HTM

Expensive.

[Nathaniel]

Here is a post that shows some of the pictures of the book:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92627

Also there is this book as well:

http://www.chinesearms.com/swordbook/swordbook.htm